Gaming III - Reading the Rules

0:00 So there is a, there's of course, there's kinesthetic games too, that we play college sports usually. But like with kids, we usually call them games. You know, there's a there's a blurred line between like gaming and sports when you're a kid. And then there's a professional sports. And you know, this this is weird dynamic between we know sports and gaming, especially in the language and the culture all like and I said, yeah, but so with, with, with kinesthetic things where actually there's a physical dynamic like playing tennis in some or something like that where like, you know, of course it's going to come out of the fundamentals of the game, how

0:32 much you've practiced, your athleticism. You know, there's there's all these factors in dynamics, but most of the time, you know, there's the outcome of this is usually pretty, predictable over time. Right? So like, you know, the the team that's loaded with all the great players, like the Dream Team for the basketball Olympics, whenever, you know, it's like they're going to more often than not, probably I'll take gold, right?

0:56 Right now there'll be a wild card, you know, said weird things happen. And this is this, like, you know, X factor, chaos theory, Libya. It would be it would be more, it would be more radical if there wasn't the reign of chance like, so coincidence and stuff like that. Like random occurrences that no one expects are more predictable than if they didn't exist.

1:17 Like so. Right. So like in reality, with the randomness, if you didn't have coincidences, if you didn't have certain things happening that were unexpected, that would be more unusual than things happening that weren't expected, right? Yeah. So, there's I learned in sports, this really interesting thing is that there's always unfortunately, fortunately or unfortunately, however you look at it, and a lot of it comes from that chess story, too, is that there's always a psychological dynamic, right?

1:47 That, if you can figure that part out, you can overcome a lot of the other physical stuff. And then, you know, this ties in the game is big time, right? Oh, yeah. If you can figure out that psychological dynamic early on in a sporting event, you can win on usually unwinnable match, you can win. And, so I had this, roommate from Thailand, and I went to private school for a year, and I was on the tennis team, the number one player on the on the, the the tennis team is like the first three are singles, and then after that is doubles.

2:18 When you have your varsity team in tennis, you know, high school, you know, whatever. Anyway, so the first three top players on the team are like one, two and three and they play singles matches when you compete against another school. Right. So I was third on the team. So I played singles and I had no business being the third player on the team.

2:36 I was not skilled, nearly skilled as some of the other players. A couple of the guys wanted to be doubles. They didn't want to play singles, and so I got to be the third singles player. The number one guy was like playing since he was four, had all this like really high. This is out of private school too.

2:50 So he had like all Division one coaching, top of the line coaching. So I make ups crazy good. Wow. Like you couldn't even dream about competing with this guy right in the number two on the team. Was from Thailand. His name was Watson, and, he was my roommate. Right. And, so what would happen is that you would every once in a while, you could challenge someone for their position on the team who makes up the number three spot could challenge the two spot, the two spot coaching challenge and the number one spot, etc. and you were expected to have also throughout the course of the year, the year present those challenges.

3:24 Yeah, from time to time. So you just had practice normally and then the coach would just be like, all right, we need to have a couple challenges today. You know stepping up. Yeah. Who's stepping up. And then some people coming out of the ranks of doubles and going in singles and change spots. And which is great. It's constant improvement.

3:37 Right. That's awesome. And so I challenge I challenge this guy was on me and he is author. He's like power hitter like like big time. He did this like double handed backhand. That was killer. I mean, to rip that thing across the court, I'd be like, damn right. I was like, what kind of racket is there is a rocket propelled to your racket or something?

3:58 Yeah. These guys had these like, yeah, I understand this. Anyway, these guys have like, this bag with like, six frickin rackets in it with all these are retentions, right? 16, 16 cans of balls in there. And, and they're all absolutely fresh and new. Oh, yeah. Like the right type of fashion and the the right knee bandage and the beautiful sneakers.

4:19 And I'm out here with, like, rabbi shorts and a t shirt with a white one frickin racket. Aluminum racket. Then there's graphite composites, right? Yeah. And I'm like, just no way out of my league. And nobody. So anyway, I happened to hit a slice backhand to my I happened to hit a slice backhand deep to his backhand. And he it goes for his two handed power shot and he hits the net.

4:40 Oh. Gets pissed. Oh wow. And so I'm like, okay, how can I use this psychology of this moment? So I hit a couple back twos normally my my normal back end. And I hit another slice back into his to his bat power back in in the net again. And he's even more test, and this is some challenging him for his spot on the team.

5:01 Right. And I'm like, wait a minute. Do I do this or not? You? Well, I made a conscious decision. Like, do I be this total asshole? Well, it's. You had so much the way you're like, this is my roommate. Exactly like this is this this is that. Exactly. And I was like, all right. No, let's just let's just keep playing for a little while and see what happens.

5:23 Anyway, there's a hilarious story. I love it. So I hit another one too. Is back in the city. You know, this time I hit a lob shot over his head. He charged, hit a live shot over his net to his backhand, and he watched it like way out of the court. Laughs I'm trying to catch it. Sounds like I have two shots now to his backhand that he took.

5:42 Yeah yeah that he flies use for two weaknesses. He has found two weaknesses. Well he decides he makes a spontaneous decision. You see his body language change. It's like I am so annoyed with this guy at this point. I'm going to kill it, right? Move that. And so he starts coming to the net and he slam it all like he's ripping him and he's like, get some attitude.

6:04 And I'm like, oh, I'm done this punk. Yeah. It's like, this guy's off kilter. He's off base like that. And I know I got it laying out. Well, yeah, he just triggered me, right? Oh, it's I bet I hit these shots to his backhand mercilessly, and he just lost his shit completely. And I took his spot on the team.

6:24 He wouldn't even talk to me. He was so pissed he wouldn't talk to me. And the next part? This. He's like, I want to challenge for my spot. One challenge for my spot. Oh, yeah. He was like, yes. He like, so did they let him challenge immediately? Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay. You know what. Once per per practice okay.

6:39 So every day when you guys came good challenge. Every day. Wow. So I have a clam every day for his spot. And if he had that, got that same pissy asshole attitude, I would just keep it. I've been to his back yard. Right? It was just he didn't put it together. It was his Achilles heel. He just did do this blind spot 100%, 100%.

6:58 Right. And so exploiting that was only happened because he took it. The aggressive, the the added aggressive attitude towards me. I was going to be a completely gentleman, not not be a dick and do that right. But just because he triggered me, right, right. I left it up to him every time. And anyway, I get to the point I can never beat the number one guy.

7:20 The number one guy was incredible. I mean, like, this world, great play. But, since I was the number two player now on the team, I was practicing against him every practice, and my skill level went up incredibly fast. I mean, like, it's playing against a master. Yes. No. Yes. And, so on, like learning how to do with some of his shots and stuff like this and never can I compete with it because he was just like, but my skill went up so fast because you weren't open and you had no pretend.

7:51 You had no designs of beating the man. You were like, I'm going to lose, but I can do something better, I can learn. Yeah, there was, there was. The stigma of losing was removed because of his status was so damn high, right. And so good that like, losing was to be expected. I had nothing to lose. Right? Right.

8:10 Like. But everything to gain. Like learning how to hit shots, return shots from this guy, you know? And so, gaming in all capacities had the layers, you know, that are like, so instrumental to life. It's success in life, right? Right. Like the parallels here are like the depth and breadth of these parallels to like real life for me kind of is real life in this case.

8:30 And I'm dating is Damian is training and I mean, this brought me to this quote here from Stephen Fry, who's a comedian. I like Steve. Yeah, the Fry and Laurie. What do you like? Oh my God, you know, what about him? He great comedian. Look him up. Yeah. But, he was paraphrasing a Russian sci fi author.

8:52 Okay, so I'm quoting him, but he's paraphrasing someone else. Progress is not achieved by preachers and guardians of morality. But to paraphrase, you have Guinea is Zamyatin by madmen, hermits, heretics, dreamers, rebels and skeptics. So I'm saying in these stories we are the dreamers, rebels and skeptics. We are. That's what the gamers are. They are those who are gunning for that next moment, that next achievement.

9:20 King Chris is story. He's dreaming. He's rebelling. He's saying, I'm not sticking with my spot. I am going to achieve and progress. And I mean, that's what gaming lets us do. Step outside of ourselves and imagine something else. Yeah, I was thinking like, what you said about your, your friend, was what you took. I'm also wondering, like, if it was also a matter of, like him, because emotions.

9:45 I keep you, like, thinking about this quote, I think is from Eleanor Lewis, but nobody can make you agree without your consent. That's a good one. This is exactly what happened. Yeah. So, like, if you led when you're like, in this is like that challenge of like, whatever you are, challenge yourself emotionally or be that like you want you believe.

10:06 We all believe in the drive of the anger. But then, oh, there's a balance there. And I and I've seen it and I don't know because I'm not a professional fighter, but I'm sure there, there has to be a point in this. I think that's part of it too. Like, you practice so much, you train so much, you numb yourself so much that you can still keep that anger on the drive.

10:27 But at the same time, you have to have a coolness to keep the strategy. Because if you only want to go hard on the other person, you're not opening yourself. This is what I'm wondering in my head. You're not opening yourself to everything. Like, it seems like the only thing that he had to do was protect his weaknesses and not go hard on you because he had more experience than you if he only protecting his ways.

10:50 So this is so much more skilled, right? So, like, it feels like he has the other parts covered. Why focus on the other parts to beat you instead of covering the weaknesses that he knows? You know, like he's not. But then like, if you're only thinking about like, charging hard like a bull because you want to, like, parachute you, your, your opponent instead of like thinking like, what should be my strategy?

11:13 Yeah. Then that definitely is gonna play a role. And that could, you know, be your at the end of the person. That's nice. See, hear. There's to to tell you the, the icing on the cake to this story is that I was always playing up now with this number one guy. Right. And so my skills were getting way fast, like I was I was improving so rapidly more than I ever have in a sport so fast.

11:33 And, because I was playing against such a great player and just like I said, a master. And anyway, so there's a thing at the end of the year that they did their this is called the school was called The Gunnery. It was a private school at Washington, Connecticut, and I was there for one year as a graduate.

11:50 And this is a play on understanding what they have. This thing each year is part of this end of year celebrations called the Gunnery Cup. And it's an open tennis tournament to everybody faculty, students, everybody. Okay. So like the whole entire school can participate. And it's a this big bracket. You know, if you go down to the finals it's huge.

12:07 Right. And you literally win like a cup at the end. It's a big deal. And your name gets in the angles from you like nice. And the number one guy in the team was named Glenn. I don't remember lost it, but it doesn't matter. And so that was Glenn. And I was like, what's going to happen? I'm going to meet Glenn in the finals, and he's going to destroy me now, like too late.

12:26 All right. So I don't even know if I want to join the turn. Yeah, yeah. And, that roommate said, no, you need to you need to join the turn. Like, you know, all or everyone on the team does. You need to join the turn. All right. And, so I get in the tournament and I'm like, you know, winning because I'm playing against, you know, mostly right?

12:44 Randos, you know, a couple of teachers too, which was fun. Yeah. And, work my way and I'm like, for the semifinals and all that and I was like, where's going? Why isn't his name in the bracket? He didn't even bother, really. It was so beneath him. Like, to him it was like, why would I waste my time with these idiots playing tennis?

13:01 I would just go out there and destroy everybody. What's the point? Right. There's no challenge here. And like, even if he knew he had to play against me, it would be no challenge. And I would know there would be. No it would be over before I summer. So I had just got better things to do. You had to think that if we were imposing brackets, we would have met finals.

13:17 But it's the pomp and circumstance of a you're supposed to participate. Well, I mean, you know what you can understand also, you know, the the approach of like, you want to have a fun game or you want to have a very predictable game. Now you and then like I think I and I could like separate that but I don't want to caught up I'm your story into like designing games where you don't have a runaway lead.

13:37 Yeah. Because those that you're not that fun. It is more fun when you have like unleashed the opportunity of a catch up mechanism so that the other person can catch up. Oh yeah. There's so many games that it's snowballed, like, you know, that it's over, even though it's still going to have a lot of time to play out.

13:52 You just know that it's all the snowballed. Yeah. So maybe he was helping there for the for the gunnery championship or contest to be able to be more fun. Oh yeah. That's a good point. So he figured that would be my roommate and I in the files. Right. Well, the problem is, is we're in the same bracket.

14:09 Oh, okay. And so we have to face each other and a beat it, of course, which drove him mad. And then, in the semifinals, then after that, it was a quarterfinal. In the semifinals, I played against a girl that I wasn't really the gentleman was, like, I, I, dare wrong. Right. And, so now there's another dynamic.

14:30 I'm like, playing against an ex-girlfriend that hates me down. Oh, really? And she was number one on the tennis team, which is damn good, right? So, like, you know. Oh, no. What are you. Right. So many dynamics. It was the worst. Fundings. Look at me. You know, sloppy play against black. And so the same thing happened ironically, right.

14:54 So like, she got her friends on her side and, you know, there's like, everyone's watching. This is like crowds are watching these games, especially in like quarterfinals. And I don't know they're just like semifinal and I'm playing against don't like oh no why did I draw. You know what I draw her and she's really good. Like one of the best female tennis players ever played against you know coming up this year.

15:13 Very good. Right. And anyway, she's like getting some great shots and she's like winning am. And I'll be honest, I'm not like going as hard as I could because I feel like a jerk, you know? Like I felt guilty because, you know, the relationship didn't go good. And all this kind of like some, like, maybe this is just it, you know?

15:32 Anyway, she's got her friends on the side, right? And friends start talking shit up. Her friends on the sideline, up against the fence, start Tottenham shit like work his ass. You know, like my mom. Give him give that punk. So that of course changes how you're going to react. And I'm like, okay, that isn't even licensed to crush now.

15:53 And and it was a devastating crushing because I did play. Perhaps he would play, you know, with Sarah. And so it went from like, you know, I don't know, it went from like really one sided, you know, it's just like playing. But she was winning almost every game to just like not even win the point after that. Destroy.

16:09 Damn. You were like, you're such a jerk. Know above one. And then I played some other rando with the finals and it was over. I win the cup. Nice. Just because Quinn. Just because Glenn did play. Yeah. Thank you. But I didn't have to beat the roommate. The last wrinkle to this tennis thing, I'll tell you. Which is really interesting dynamic.

16:26 Is that we would go up against certain schools and, they would they, me being in the number two spot gave us, sometimes a win because the third spot got my roommate, which was far superior to me as far as skill. Right. When we play against someone else and the other person, we know his weakness. So he was playing the number three slot on the team, but that would almost guarantee us a win over time, because I'd usually play against someone that was great and crushed, but that would eliminate from their side a really strong player.

16:58 Sorry. The other schools that we play, their top player, we play our top player. That was always a game to watch. Oh yeah. Right. And there was like me, usually against another really, really strong player and I'd usually get crushed. I mean I'd always put them fine, I know it, sure. And occasionally I'd wig, but like almost always I would lose.

17:13 But then Watson would just come in and crush because he was like playing the third play, but he rightfully should have been second place, you see. Right, right. And so I was always like this kind of wild card because I can eliminate a really good player on their team. Yeah. And then give up. It ended up being a really good strategy.

17:28 It worked. It allowed us to win more meets this weird wrinkle in the cosmos. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So that's another interesting layer of gaming that not only that. Now we talked about these different psychologies and these things in the gaming rep, but there's also this long game strategies, right. They come into play with board games and physical sports and stuff like that.

17:48 And this was like tied into this long game strategy kind of idea that worked out great for our, overall team. We said, I'm saying, so board games, having all these like dynamics two where like there's even a popular, say take one for the team brothers. Right. So like you martyr yourself kind of because for the overall benefit, more likely your team's what it really is one of the games where you make that sacrifice, you know.

18:12 Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, the conversation long, but there's a whole bunch of things in our idioms in our way, which yeah, related to games like, you know, take one for the team is just one saying, but they'll say, you know, if we say, hey, we really put our heads together. There's like, gaming is so integrated and infiltrated into our culture and our language.

18:33 And, you know, here in America and it's everywhere in the world that like, seems like Pokemon in America. We're really big on gaming. You know, Brian, like American gaming industry. The numbers are staggering. I mean, it's out of before we start, but the other day and I was like, the money in gaming is incredible. Like video gaming, sports and board gaming, right?

18:54 The total amount of like, resource that we put in this country into gaming is incredible. We put a lot of capital and treasure into gaming. Yeah. So there must be something to it. Well, yeah, I mean, even some, even those simple idioms like roll the dice, that's, you know. Yeah, it's taking a giant's. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, you've got,

19:16 Oh. But it's like it's even, like in the, I forgot the there's a Latin word by Roman. The die has been cast and, just you're in states have been sealed, so to speak. It's not. Is it in the cards? Yes. Yes. Yeah, yeah. There's actually give up about the ante. Sweeten the pot. Yeah. Absolutely. Very, yeah.

19:40 There's, like I was mentioning to you earlier that there's this book called Holman Ludus and about like, this is a classic in terms of, like the, the, the idea of gaming society and culture, by this Dutch writer. And, he, he's he's presenting the idea that we can identify ourselves more as a distinct species, not by being sapiens like knowledge, because others also have knowledge, other species, but because of the the playfulness in our culture.

20:13 So the playful factor in all in, in, the culture that we have as human, not one culture and specifically, but just in general. And there's while he explores that theme, one thing that is interesting was that was just it was going to my as you were talking about, like how spread out and how like it's like everywhere in our society and language and stuff.

20:36 He talks about like, of course, the, the intersection between like the play of drama play, role play and drama. And then you have role play, you have role playing games and, and there's, there's, there's, there's a reason why there's like this interconnection because, dude, there's like this overlap here of themes. There's also an overlap with rituals and, role playing and what, how that's part of certain rituals.

21:01 And then kind of like the certain simulation of like you're simulating something and and of course, you know, also like, I myself practice a, a martial arts, martial arts, that is because of the nature that is hidden with within music is capoeira, which is an Afro-Brazilian martial arts. I love that, and I've done it, you know, for four years now.

21:23 In there, you never say you fight, but you can use the word fighting. But the basic word of saying, like you say, play capoeira. You don't say like, oh, I'm going to do some capoeira. You just say like, oh, I'm going to play some capoeira. You want to play? Oh, that was a nice game. That was a nice game.

21:38 Nice. You're fighting like, but you're not. It's a, it's a, it's a fight that is not very of movies I've seen. Okay. How did I not also see that dance. It almost looks like a nature, but there's definitely, definitely a Venn diagram with breakdancing, for sure. Because there's a lot of similar moves that are done there.

21:55 Then, like the breakdancing, a lot of things where they like, go like with the, with the free angry stare. And that's a kick. Okay. That's a kick like you put here. Your people are not expecting it. You go this side and then this foot comes over here, and then where you're standing on one hand, that's a kick.

22:09 It's a breakdancing move, but it's also a kick. But then like that, you it's it's it's it's special because like, you don't expect to say I'm playing somebody when you're fighting them. Even though it's also a sport. So like, it shouldn't be that you know that far in the, in our, in our minds. Yeah. But if you find yourself like, oh there's interconnection here that I didn't expect.

22:31 So when children fight, play, fight with each other like they do all the time, like children will play fight and you'll actually hear them laughing while they're fighting. They're like. They're like giggling with a certain type of laughter that that you'll hear when you have, like, especially two boys fighting is, even if they're boys are just acquaintances, they're really not that familiar.

22:50 It's a playground. Like, funny to the young boys. They'll have this, like, certain kind of really unique laugh that they do while they're doing it. And it's a natural, instinctual utterance that comes to like, let the other person know that it's just like that. It's not real. It's a, there's this animals do it too. There's this instinctual little like call that basically while you're scrapping you.

23:13 Basically what you're saying over and over is this is just play. This is just play. Yeah. Like don't escalate. Don't escalate. Yeah. Because you know, that does happen too. Sometimes the play turns serious. Yeah. Yeah. And so this like little giggle that that people will do when they're like play fighting right. You even see adults do it. That's like slap boxing or something.

23:31 And they'll start laughing their heart. Right. It's like this, this, this laughter diffuses the idea that it might be going to real, this laughter, this body language. I mean, it's every element of it. Like, you can see it from afar and know exactly what's going on. Oh, they're play laughing. Play like they're not. Two people are. Two people are scrapping and they're laughing about it.

23:51 You wouldn't think that. You wouldn't get scared like. But when they're if they're not, then they're like, oh shit. Because like me, they call chance and they're telegraphing playing versus telegraphing this aggression right in, in, you know, in it that just you're right. I mean, when we were talking about it, the homo luden's thing, it's play is another level than thinking.

24:13 Thinking is consider contrast, compare. Play is facility and grace and understanding of your environment. It's like you're able to remix it. You're able to shift it, you know, in and, it's it's another level of abstraction. It's it's more than homo sapiens. I agree with you there. And then the, the board game, right itself, the middle, the medium of the board game is another, another way to show that we're fighting.

24:40 We're sparring, but it's just all in this safe space. Oh, yeah. In in many different ways. I would say that, one thing that I'm very interested, like, now that I'm very cozy up in this rabbit hole down here on the board against, is the idea of board games as a neo and that, I tell you that it feels similar to when I, when I discovered that the comic books, in a serious way, like, not comic books, but graphic novels, I mean, the distinction that is more for matic, but it also like it's also a reference to how it can work as a medium of storytelling.

25:16 You just forget what you used to, forget what you used to, in this case, board games or what you used to play. Think about you have a table, or if it's a table you get together and then you have a system for, with an A for an interaction. And you might use some tools, some, some items. That's it.

25:35 And then that's it. And then you do whatever it is that you want to create in terms of the dynamics for the players, for the people doing there. What type of feelings do you want to evoke? What type of like different types of, like, moments. Do you want the people to find themselves in at a certain point?

25:52 Do you want an art? Do you know, want an arc, or are you just trying to make a point of how like, ridiculous it is to do this in society and then you're going to put them doing like something that this is like, oh, man, this makes no sense. Some game designers do that. Some game designers do a game just for people to get frustrated because they're making a point about it, actually.

26:12 Like what's the. Yeah, there's like the most complicated game. I was, watching this, amabile hole. And she did a video, a video about, talking about this designer who made this game. I forgot it's a war game. The name of it. If it was, if even it was even referenced in the game, Big Bang Theory.

26:31 Okay, the TV show. Oh, God. It is a in. It's boring. It's a war game that it's so extensive and it has so many rules and it's super long. It's like the most, like, complex and, heavy, board game ever. Apparently. However, the designer did it on purpose just to mess with people, like spent hours and hours on end.

26:53 But it's even clear in certain parts of the rulebooks he just wants to mess with you. What, like it's almost like Monty Python type of comedies gaining some these streaming the gamers, right? But then, yeah yeah yeah. And then like and there are other games that don't do it to that extreme, but they don't make you feel somehow like uncomfortable about something.

27:14 Like there's this John Company game from KL or Lee who's a great game designer, who works with Special Dynamics in ways that you might not expect in the beginning, but junk companies about you, East India Company, how are you exploiting the, the, the India and the colonies from Britain? But then like, it makes you go through these interactions that it's like there's a point about how he makes you feel.

27:38 So it really makes you go through the emotional rollercoaster of being a colonizer who exploits resources and extracts things from other colonies. Well, yeah, because you have to export in order to score. You have to do certain things. So it will put you in a position where you will be. This also the matter of like while you were distracted thinking about certain things in a system that is like a little bit more complicated than you shoots a ladder and then raised with rolling the dice or, sorry, game, right?

28:03 Or that type of Parcheesi. In games that are a little bit more complicated, you have to be like, you will be more immersed in the in the, in the rules. And then what you need to do now, and that's the score that you would might not expect. The moment that you're going to feel or the experience that you're going to end up having at some point.

28:22 And you're cannot be like a little bit like Sucker Punch, like, oh, oh, I'm doing this, though. Wow. And then when, when you come out of the back side of that experience, I think you probably emerged with an intuition towards these type of things that you wouldn't have had otherwise. Like the game gives you a medium by which you can explore that space, and actually being some knowledge and intuition about the reality of it right through the medium of the game that you probably otherwise wouldn't have the access to.

28:46 Yeah, yeah. So so the games are opening up different things, avenues for learning that might not be available, you know. Yeah it would you wouldn't want it to be available in let's. Yeah. The life it's experiential learning with again lessened impact is what we haven't really said lessened impact to but to have the experience and you can iterate it as well.

29:09 You can do it, you know, repeat it and try out different ways and different approaches. Yeah. And so it becomes a dynamic space too, because you can iterate as many times as you would like it. Oh yeah. And in different ways. And find out like different like interactions that you didn't expect. That's cool. So in video game systems, they'll do this all the time in like this multiplayer online games where they have like matchmaking teams, you know, the teams like randomly, randomly assigned teams.

29:33 We go do some kind of fighting or whatever it is. And what they'll do in these, video games is they'll, actually, like, gamify the matchmaking to make it to where you never really, once you start to really progress and do well, they change up the matchmaking, they put you on poorer teams. So then you fail for a while, and then what that does is it gets your dopamine cycle to where, like the, the losing streak is more powerful to keep you playing than the winning streak down.

29:58 And so that there's patterns out there for like e-sports and Activision and all these different companies have patterns on how they do this, algorithms and matchmaking to make it to where you stay around the 50% win rate, regardless of your skills. Both because the idea is to keep you in a box like, and keep you playing all night friggin long because you're that because you can't get a win.

30:21 You play all night long because you can't win in gym, much like they do in casinos. How they gamify, you know, like all that stuff. Oh, yeah. So yeah, there's a psychological hook and then there's another level of psychological hook and experiential hook where some of the more complex games have the engineered economies. Yes. Where you're not only playing for the win, you're playing to acquire, you're playing to earn, you know.

30:44 Yeah. So like I was going to say like there's, I, I watch the videos of designers in game design in conference. I think it's called GTC. I think it's yeah, games and conference. But in, one of the conferences that I, that I was listening to, they were talking about like kind of like the psychology of the players and it's kind of like gamifying outcomes.

31:06 And considering this in terms of like, what? You know, what you just won, but what you're going to have to deal with in terms of like, this is just the way people feel. And then is that how you want to, for example, like loss aversion, the concept of loss aversion, that meaning like you have somebody, who acquired ability, let's say, like you were saying, like I acquired this, even if that building is going to make them lose.

31:29 Yeah. There is an instinct, the typical human instinct, to hold on to what you already have, while the not want to let go versus actual. So they will be like putting themselves at more risk of losing because they don't want to let go of the choice they made. And you can go into politics. I made this choice. It's going to be difficult for me to admit and then retract myself from like the side that I'm supporting.

31:53 And the other point. But that also happens. The psychology is present in gaming, and then you have game designers that getting to like study this in order to like design the game with the experience that they want and they have to take this into consideration. Or if they don't, they will see it in the playtesting. They will see it that when they play test it, they will see that experience happen.

32:12 They will have to wonder like, oh man, is that going to just like, make it suck for all these people? Yeah. Or are they not playing the way I want them to, because they're not getting to the point that I was expecting the, unintended effect that ruins the spirit that they originally had in mind for the game.

32:27 Yeah. Because it's just like a human nature that kind of like, tilted one way. And so they're thinking about all of those things, and then they're also thinking about game, the progression in the game, or getting to where I want them to get. Where does the median player achieve? You know, it's like, yeah, oh yeah. A lot of playtesting, a lot of playtesting.

32:47 Wow. Another idiom that some of them say around gaming is like, look, this isn't a game. Yeah, right. But I think it's so, so in other words, there's real consequences in out here like that, right? There's no lease barn. Yeah. Yeah. So in the gamification of military operations, there's I think there's a, there's a degree of gamification, much along the lines of what we're talking about is that you'll get so focused down a rabbit hole, you were talking about this colonizing game where you're like, you know, fire nuances of, like how we exploit resources as a colonizer, like you're now your objective.

33:19 Is that. Right? So you're way downstream. You're you're no longer thinking about the overarching big, big geopolitical thing happening. You're focused on how do I get to achieve this micro goal? Same thing happens in military operations. You're so focused on the mission at hand that you got time, don't have time or the convenience or the, the opportunity to really contemplate the larger infrastructure that you're participating in.

33:42 You're participating in the mission at hand, and it's life or death. Yeah. It couldn't be more stakes, couldn't be higher. And so you're so focused on that. That's the that's the full capacity of your mind and your imagination is focus on the task at hand, regardless of what you're actually the campaign that you're actually contributing to at a much larger scale is way outside of your control.

34:01 Right? Instead, I'm saying doyen. And so another way you can kind of game the gamer, if you will, or have be gamified by life is it keeps people so laser focused on some minutia. Right. That they're, that they're figuring out the rules and, and downstream in this lower level, subroutine of gaming. Right. In life, in real life.

34:22 So where you have the basically or people being gamified, this is much of what happens on social media or scrolling and all this kind of stuff. And like even the next thing you know, it's like the sun's coming up. You're like, what the fuck happened? Right? Is because the the scrolling is gamified, it's like it's a video of no interest, no interest, no interest.

34:37 Now all of a sudden, we want you to be really interested in right now, all of a sudden 2030 with no interest, and then all of a sudden one that you're really interested in the game we're at or somewhat interested. So it's like just it's just this gamified process of algorithm right within algorithm within an algorithm. So subroutine within subjects, you know, like don't get people to focus on something like, wealth inequality.

35:00 Okay. Get them focus on race and equity okay. So get someone. So focus on the minutia of that subroutine game that's just been gamified because race is just a construct anyway. Yeah. Social construct. Yeah. Social construct can get people so gamified and wrapped up into that micro routine or that micro game, for lack of a better term, right?

35:20 To where then the big game is. You know, that's really going on. You end up contributing to that big game they in they're saying layers of their games within games. Yeah. That's where layers of control yes. Yeah. Because you have human nature on one side of course. And then you have certain aspects of like the way the brain works with like dopamine and then what is like triggering what in your brain and which emotions and then what can like become a chain reaction and such.

35:46 And then and then you can have that play out in real life. But then there's also the factor when people very consciously put you in that situation. Yeah, with a drill school or they just want you so hyper focused or so like, you know, hyped about this one thing that they're not paying attention over here to what's happening that the people that are sending you to like, know very well that is happening, but they don't want you to look over there.

36:09 So like when you have that type of control, then I think that's when you see that gamification, when we see like the design, like the game design, because you have the nature itself of the brain and human nature. But then like, you know, when somebody's kind of like behind the curtains, it's kind of like pulling some strings, like, I want this to go this way.

36:26 Yeah, yeah, they can exploit that and you reap, you know, and all these people, including myself, I know I've to use another idiom. I've been set back to square one more than once. You know, in it, it's just in it is it's you get reset, you get shifted, you get moved and controlled because you're not understanding the system within systems that you're stuck in.

36:50 And this, this inception, you've got to break out of it. You've got to fourth wall that you've got to realize what hierarchy of needs you're stuck under. You've I mean, it's just all these things and it's such a high level game that requires so much thinking and effort. And it's a cooperative game that we've all got to work together on.

37:11 I mean, it's just is it possible that the that the, the, the actual like lessons learned throughout the nuance of gaming would actually start to help you reveal these these like real life games? I, I think I think there's such a high piece of intelligence built into one game. Yeah. For fair. Well, yeah. Because like, I think it's, I forgot how I, we got to that point earlier, but, we were talking about kind of like.

37:36 Oh, yeah, when we were talking about, the book behave bicycle skiing the all and about how you can how you can make you feel at some point, like you make no choice of your own. But then, like, I, I was thinking of the idea of, false dichotomies, which is like, like this false. Like, just like, zero, zero sum, games.

37:59 Right? That you have so much and it's just like a tendency in the human brain, in human society to think about if was binary ways and then it because now you're saying about kind of like, you know, kind of like breaking the four ball and then kind of like the levels breaking through the levels of inception to get to the reality or to like a macro point of there I go, a macro point of view is the best you could hope for, right?

38:23 But then always have that the the thing is like even politically, even if you think you're on the right side or any type of poll, it's not just like the parties that are for government, but politics in real life and in just everything. When you think about it, you have to like the smartest thing that you can do, I think is kind of like to focus on keeping that awareness of yourself.

38:46 So it's not a matter that I figure it out. I know which is the right side that I'm on. It's about always keeping that awareness of being vulnerable, to go back to zero and then keeping that awareness of like, I always have to have that openness because it's kind of like a you have to there's I think we have to understand humility is key here to understand how much we don't know and how much we can pull ourselves into a trap.

39:13 So, like understanding complexities, being open to complexities, it's not that you don't have to make a choice between two options. That's not it, right? You might have to do that. And yeah, we do it. Sure. But then it's like always having that awareness of kind of like the scope beyond it. Yes. To then kind of like just break away from where society will be, kind of like wedges into, like where you feel like there's no option, like this is where it always is another option.

39:40 If you can step back and look, there always is a way to react or move that is unexpected or wasn't planned for, right? I mean, like there's a theory that there's no way, that there's no scope where that's absolutely real, but I do believe so. I would like to believe so on at least I do feel in the very least I do feel that I have more agency to move and less trapped in a bubble.

40:07 The more I scope out, the more I scope out it and then no matter what anyone situation ever in life, you know, have that vulnerability and then be open to like, okay, let me just step back and let's reassess this. Usually I used to do melody and objectivity and to be able to back up, be humble, realize where you might have screwed up, and to look at it in the macro.

40:29 Yeah. And actually when you say objectivity, I would say that is not just objectivity, but is more than objectivity is being clear and aware of how impossibly objective, how impossible it is to be fully objective and then still try to achieve an objectivity by understanding the subjectivity that is always present. So I don't know. I don't know that, but I'm not.

40:56 No, I think I get what you're saying. You, in essence, laugh at the futility of it and yet still participate in the game. You say the game is futile, but I still must participate. I can still laugh at it. I can still have some mobility because I see the ridiculous desert. I gain the fire as a coping mechanism all time personal.

41:16 But yeah, gamified shit all the time in my mind to cope with things sometimes. Yeah, I know it's like, oh, so in terms of symbology to kind of like, to clarify, how will I, I will I love the epistemology class that I took in college because like, for me, it was like, wow, this is so cool.

41:32 And it's the idea of like, you know, when you talk about objectivity not being attainable, that's something that was, you know, very exploited in the 19th century. And then after a century and then in terms of like, you know, this not being something that you can reach. So like the question is like, what can you reach? Is it all?

41:51 Everything is relative. And it's just kind of like whatever, anything. There's no values. No more, no more, all of anything. No, no, no, that's not it. So like kind of like my take away from that is that it's always a matter of approximation. Percentages of like, okay, so this is like my the best that I can do and I'm going to do my best effort to make a wise decision from what I know, without abandoning the idea that I could be wrong.

42:14 But then we're going to do our best decision ever, you know? And I think this even goes to like, I'm then I'm getting into a topic that is like maybe controversial death penalty. Like if you take somebody in somebody's life, how certain and how perfect your system is, that you will take that sacred responsibility of a human life and taken it away.

42:33 And then even though in many moments, even myself, I feel like, oh, definitely this person should not exist in the world, right? You know, yeah, we had those moments. But systematically speaking, it would put you in that spot of like the certainty of truth and then how attainable it is and how humble we are about like making important decisions while understanding the futility.

42:56 Like you were saying, child. Wow. That was that was deep. That's hard. Yeah, I can help. But that was awesome. I loved it, and I mean, I think we're all with you on this, on this journey, but go ahead. But we can say, oh, we stole it from you. We've got that on power gas. Now so that.