0:00 So there is a, there's of course, there's kinesthetic games two that we play called sports usually. But like with kids, we usually call them games. You know, there's a there's a blurred line between like gaming and sports when you're a kid. And then there's a professional sports. And you know, this is weird dynamic between, you know, sports and gaming, especially in the language and the culture and all that kind of stuff.

0:21 Yeah. But, so with, with with kinesthetic things, we're actually like, there's a physical dynamic, like playing tennis or something like that, right? Like, you know, of course it's going to come down to the fundamentals of the game, how much you've practiced, your athleticism. You know, there's there's all these factors in dynamics, but most of the time, you know, there's the outcome of this is usually pretty predictable over time.

0:44 Right. So like, you know, the the team that's loaded with all the great players, like the Dream Team for the basketball Olympics, whatever, you know, it's like they're going to more often than not, probably all take gold, right? Right now there'll be a wild card. You know, weird things happen. And this is just like, you know, X factor of chaos theory and Libya, it would be it would be more, it would be more radical if if there wasn't the ring of chance like, so coincidence and stuff like that, like random occurrences that no one expects are, are more predictable that if they didn't exist like so.

1:18 Right. So like in reality with the randomness, if you didn't have coincidences, if you didn't have certain things happening that were unexpected, that would be more unusual than things happening that were unexpected. Right. See what I'm saying? Yeah. So, there's I learned in sports, this really interesting thing is that there's always unfortunately, fortunately or unfortunately, how we look at it.

1:41 And a lot of it comes from that chess story, too, is that there's always a psychological dynamic, right? That, if you can figure that part out, you can overcome a lot of the other physical stuff. And, you know, this ties in the game is big time, right? Oh, yeah. If you can figure out that psychological dynamic early on in a, in a sporting event, you can win a usually unwinnable match.

2:04 You can win. And so I had this roommate from Thailand, and I went to private school for a year, and I was on the tennis team, the number one player on the, on the, the the tennis team, there's like the first three are singles and then after that it's doubles. You have a varsity team, that type of thing.

2:20 Tennis, you know, high school, you know, whatever. Anyway, so the first three top players on the team are like one, two and three. And they play singles matches when you compete against another school. Right. So I was third on the team. So I played singles and I had no business being the third player of the team. I was not a skilled, nearly skilled as some of the other players.

2:40 A couple of the guys wanted to be doubles. They didn't want to play singles, and so I got to be the third singles player. The number one guy was like playing since he was four, had all this like really high. This is at a private school too. So he had like all Division one coaching, top of the line coaching was crazy.

2:55 Good luck. Like, I couldn't even dream about competing with this guy, right? The number two and the guy team was from Thailand. His name was Lausanne, and he was my roommate. Right. And, so what would happen is that you would every once in a while, you could challenge someone for their position on the team. Like so the number three spot could challenge the two spot, the two spot could challenge and the number one spot, etc. and you were expected to have to out the course of the year, the year present those challenges.

3:24 Yeah, from time to time. So you just had practice normally and then the coach would just be like, all right, we need to have a couple challenges today. You know stepping up. Yeah. Who's stepping up. And then some people come out of the ranks of doubles and go in singles and change spots, which is great. It's constantly improving right.

3:38 That's awesome. And so I challenge I challenge this guy was on right. And he is awesome. He's like power hitter. Like like big time this like double handed backhand. Not what's killer. I mean, he ripped that thing across the court. I'd be like, damn right. It's like, what kind of racket is, is that a rocket propelled to your racket or something?

3:58 Yeah. These guys had these, like, you ever understand it? Any of these guys have, like, this bag with, like, six fricking rackets in it with all these different tensions, right? 16, 16 cans of balls in there and like. Yeah. And they're all absolutely fresh and new. Oh, yeah. Like the the right type of fashion and the, the the right knee bandage and the the the beautiful sneakers.

4:18 And I'm out here with, like, radius shorts and a t shirt with white one freaking racket. Aluminum racket. They're those graphite composites, right? Yeah. And I'm like, just no way out of my league and nobody. So anyway, I happen to hit a slice backhand to my I happen to hit a slice backhand deep to his backhand. And he goes for his two handed power shot and he hits it in the net.

4:41 He gets pissed. Oh well yeah. So I'm like, okay, how can I use this psychology of this moment? So I hit a couple back to normally my my normal back end, and I hit another slice back into his to his power back in in the again. And he's even more test. And this is some challenging him for his spot on the team.

5:01 Yeah. And I'm like wait a minute. Do do I do this or not? Well I made a conscious decision. Like, do I be this total asshole? Well, it's like you had so much to weigh here. Like, this is my roommate. Exactly like this. Is this this is that exactly? And I was like, all right. No, let's just let's just keep playing for a little while and see what happens.

5:23 Anyway, there's a hilarious story. I gotta love it. So I hit number one to his backhand. The shitty. You know, this time I. He hit a lob shot over his head. He charged the net, hit a lob shot over his net to his backhand, and he launched it like way out of the court trying to catch it. Sounds like I have two shots now to his backhand that he took Kenny.

5:42 Yeah yeah that he flies. He was two weaknesses. He has found two weaknesses. Well he decides he makes the spontaneous decision. He sees his body language change. It's like I am so annoyed with this guy at this point. I'm in a killer, right? And so he starts coming to the net and he slam all like he's ripping him and he's like, gets an attitude.

6:04 And I'm like, oh, I'm done this punk. Yeah. It's like, this guy's off kilter. He's off base. I said, I, I know I got it right now. Like, yeah, he just triggered me, right? Oh. And so I that I hit these shots to his backhand mercilessly and he just lost his shit, like, completely. And I took his spot on the team.

6:23 Oh, he wouldn't even talk to him. He was so pissed. He wouldn't talk to me in the next fight that he's like, I want to challenge for my spot. One challenge for my spot. Oh, yeah. He was like this. He's like, so did they let him challenge immediately? Oh yeah. Yeah okay okay. Once per per practice okay. So every day when you guys came challenge every day.

6:42 Wow. So I have a clam every day for his spot. And if he had the got that same pissy asshole attitude, I would just keep it up into his backyard. Right? It was just he didn't put it together. It was his Achilles heel. He just didn't see it was his blind spot 100%, 100%. Right. And so exploiting that was only happened because he took the aggressive the the aggressive attitude towards me.

7:07 I was going to be a completely gentleman, not not be a dick and do that right. But just because he triggered me, right, right. I left it up to him every time. And anyway, I get to the point I could never beat the number one guy. The number one guy was acceptable. I mean, like, odd of this world.

7:24 Great play. But, since I was the number two player now on the team, I was practicing against him every practice and my skill level went up incredibly fast. I mean, like, he's playing against a master. Yes. No. Yes. And I'm so I'm like learning how to do with some of his shots and stuff like this. And never could I compete with him because he was just like, but my skill went up so fast because you were open and you had no pretend.

7:51 You had no designs of beating the man. You were like, I'm going to lose, but I can do something better, I can learn. Yeah, there was, there was a the stigma of losing was removed because of his status was so damn high, right. And so good that like, losing was to be expected. I had nothing to lose. Right, right.

8:09 Like. But everything to gain. Like how to hit shots, return shots from this guy. Yeah. And so, gaming in all capacities have these layers, you know, that are like so instrumental to life, its success in life. Right? Right. Like the parallels here are like the depth and breadth of these parallels to like real life. What kind of is real life in this case?

8:30 And dating is dating is training. And I mean, this brought me to this quote here from Stephen Fry, who's a comedian. I like Steve. Yeah. The friend Laurie with my God, you know what you're about him. He great comedian. Look him up. Yeah. But, he was paraphrasing a Russian sci fi author. Okay, so I'm quoting him, but he's paraphrasing someone else.

8:58 Progress is not achieved by preachers and guardians of morality. But to paraphrase, you have given the machine by madmen, hermits, heretics, dreamers, rebels and skeptics. So I'm saying in these stories, we are the dreamers, rebels and skeptics. We are. That's what the gamers are. They are those who are gunning for that next moment, that next achievement can. Chris is story.

9:21 He's dreaming. He's rebelling. He's saying, I'm not sticking with my spot. I am going to achieve a progressive. And I mean, that's what gaming lets us do. Step outside of ourselves and imagine something else. Yeah, I was thinking like what you said about your your friend who sport you took. I'm also wondering, like if it was also a matter of like him because emotions.

9:45 I keep him like thinking about this quote. I think it's from Eleanor Roosevelt. Nobody can make you angry without your consent. That's a good one. This is what happened. Yeah. So, like, if you let when you're like. And it's like that challenge of like whatever you are challenged yourself emotionally or be that like you want you believe. We all believe in the drive of the anger.

10:09 But then there's a balance there. And I and I've seen it and I don't know because I'm not a professional fighter, but I'm sure there there has to be a point. And this I think that's part of it too. Like, you practice so much, you train so much, you numb yourself so much that you can still keep that anger on that drive.

10:27 But at the same time, you have to have a coolness to keep the strategy. Because if you only want to go hard on the other person, you're not opening yourself. And this is what I'm wondering in my head. You're not opening yourself to everything. Like, it seems like the only thing that he had to do was to protect his weaknesses, not go hard on you because he had more experience than you.

10:49 If he only protecting his wisdom so much more skilled, right? So like if he like he has the other parts covered, why focus on the other parts to beat you instead of covering the weaknesses that he knows, you know, like it is not. But then like, if you're only thinking about like charging hard like a bull because you want to like, crush your opponent instead of like thinking like, what should be my strategy?

11:13 Yeah. Then that definitely is going to play role. And that could, you know, be your the end of the person. There's to to tell you the, the icing on the cake to this story is that I was always playing up now with this number one guy. Right. And so my skills were getting way fast, like I was I was improving so rapidly more than I ever have in a sport so fast.

11:33 And because I was playing against such a great player and just like I said, I'm master. And anyway, so there's this thing at the end of the year that they did their this is called the school was called The Gunnery. It was a private school up in Washington, Connecticut, and I was there for one year as a postgraduate, and I was playing on this tennis team.

11:51 Well, they have this thing each year is part of the end of year celebration. It's called the Gunnery Cup, and it's an open tennis tournament to everybody faculty, students, everybody. Okay. So like the whole entire school can participate. And it's a this big bracket. You know, you go down to the finals. It's huge. Right. And you literally win like a cup at the end.

12:10 It's a big deal. And your name gets in the angles perfectly nice. And the number one guy in the team was named Glenn. I don't remember his last name, but doesn't matter. His name's Glenn. And I was like, what's going to happen? I'm going to be glad in the finals. And he's going to destroy me. Yeah, like like I didn't do.

12:27 So I don't even know if I want to join the tournament. Yeah. And, that roommate said, no, you need to you need to join the turn. Like, you know, all everyone on the team does. You need to join the turner. All right? And so I get in the tournament and I'm like, you know, winning because I'm playing against, you know, mostly randos, you know, a couple of teachers to which was fun.

12:46 Yeah. And work my way and I'm like to the semifinals and all that. And I was like where's it going. Why isn't his name in the breaking? He doesn't even bother, really. It was so beneath him like, oh, to him it was like, wow. Why would I waste my time with these idiots playing tennis? I would just go out there and destroy everybody.

13:03 What's the point, right? There's no challenge here. Like, even if he knew he had to play against me, there would be no challenge. And I would know there would be. No, it would be over before I ever caught. My dad just got better things to do. Everything that we were imposing brackets, we would have met. But. But it's the pomp and circumstance of it.

13:19 You're supposed to participate. Well, I mean, in a way I can understand also, you know, the, the approach of like, do you want to have a fun game or you want to have a very predictable game now? Yeah. In that life I think I and I could like separate that. But I don't want to cut on your story into like designing games where you don't have a runaway lead.

13:37 Yeah. Because those that you're not that fun. It is more fun when you have like at least the opportunity of a catch up mechanism so that the other person can catch up. Oh yeah. There's so many games snowballed, like, you know, that it's over, even though it's still going to have a lot time to play out. You just know that it's over.

13:53 It's snowballed. Yeah. So maybe he was helping there for the for the gunnery, championship or contest to be able to be more fun. Oh yeah, that's a good point. So he figured that it'd be my roommate and I in the files. Right. Well, the problem is, is we were in the same bracket. Oh, okay. And so we had to face each other in that beat it, of course, which drove him mad.

14:15 And then, in the semifinals. Then after that, it was like quarterfinal in the semifinals, I played against a girl I wasn't really a gentleman with, like, I, I did her wrong. Right. And so now the another dynamic I'm like playing against an ex-girlfriend that hates me down really. And she was number one on the tennis team and she's damn good.

14:37 Right. So I'm like, you know. Oh, no. What are you. Right. So many dynamics here. Right? Where's the worst women funnels look. Yeah. Sloppy players. But then so the same thing happened ironically, right. So like, she's got her friends on her side and you know, there's like everyone's watching this this like crowds are watching these games especially like quarterfinals and my final.

15:02 They're just like semifinal. And I'm playing against I'm like oh no. Why did I draw? You know what? I draw her and she's really good. Like one of the best female tennis players ever played against here. Coming up. This is very good. Right. And anyway, she's like getting some great shots and she's like winning, you know? And I'll be honest, I'm not like, going as hard as I could because I feel like a jerk, you know?

15:24 Like I felt guilty because, you know, the relationship didn't go good and all this kind of stuff. So I'm like, maybe this is just it, you know? Anyway, she's got her friends on the side, right? And friends start talking shit up. Her friends on the sideline, up against the fence, start talking shit like, whose ass, you know, like give, give, give that punk.

15:46 So that of course, you just how you're gonna react. And I'm like, okay, me license to crush now. And and it was a devastating crushing because I've been playing practically. Yeah. Right. And so it went from like, you know, I don't know, it went from like really one sided. Yeah. I was just like playing. But she was winning almost every game to just like, not even win a point after that.

16:08 Destroy. Damn. Here were like, you're such a jerk. You know, and then I played some other rando in the finals and it was over. I winged the cup. Nice. Just because, Glenn. Just because Glenn didn't play. Yeah, they could, but I didn't have to beat the roommate. Oh, the last wrinkle to this tennis thing, I'll tell you, which is really interesting dynamic, is that we would go up against certain schools and, they would they me being in the number two spot gave us sometimes a win because the third spot guy, my roommate, which was far superior to me as far as skill.

16:43 Right. But we played in someone else and the other person wouldn't know his weakness. So he was playing the number three slot on the team. But that would almost guarantee us a win over time, because I'd usually play against someone that was great and get crushed, but that would eliminate from their side a really strong player. So at the other schools that we play their top player, replay our top player, that was always a game to watch.

17:02 Oh yeah. Right. And then it was like me usually against another really, really strong player and I'd usually get crushed. I mean, I would always put up a fight and occasionally I'd wing, but like almost always I would lose. But then Watson would just come in and crush because he was like playing the third place, but he rightfully should have been second place.

17:19 He said, right, right. And so I was always like this kind of wild card because I can eliminate a really good player on their team. Yeah. And then give it ended up being a really good strategy. It worked well. It want us to win more meets this weird wrinkle in the cosmos. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So that's another interesting layer of gaming that not only that, now that we talked about all these different psychologies and these things in the gaming, but there's also this long game strategies, right, that come into play with board games and physical sports and stuff like that.

17:48 And this was like tied into this long game strategy kind of idea that worked out great for our or overall team. We said what I'm saying. So board games, having all these like dynamics to where like there's even a popular, say take one for the team rather the right. So like you martyr yourself kind of because for the overall benefit more likely your kids to win.

18:08 It really is plenty of games where you make that sacrifice, you know. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, the conversation is getting along, but there's a whole bunch of things in our idioms in our voyage. Yeah. Related to gangs. Like take one for the team is just one saying, but then say, you know, if we say here really put our heads together, there's like, gaming is so integrated and infiltrated into our culture and our language and, you know, here in America and everywhere in the world.

18:36 But like, it seems like potent in America. We're really big on gaming in American, like the American gaming mystery. The numbers are staggering. I it's out of before we talked, but the other day and I was like, the money in gaming is incredible. Like video gaming, sports and board gaming. Right. The total amount of like, resource that we put in this country into gaming is incredible.

19:00 We put a lot of capital and treasure into gaming. Yeah. So there must be something to it. Well, yeah. I mean, even some, even those simple idioms like roll the dice, that's, you know. Yeah. It's taking a giant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, you've got Oh but it's like, it's even like in the I forgot the, there's a Latin word by Roman.

19:25 The die has been cast. Yes, yes. You're in a state. Have been sealed, so to speak. It's not. Is it? In the cards? Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, there's actually, you know, the ante. Sweeten the pot. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There's a I was mentioning to you that there's this book called and about like, this is a classic in terms of like the, the, the idea of gaming society and culture.

19:53 But it's Dutch writer and he, he's, he's presenting the idea that we can identify ourselves more as a distinct species, not by being sapiens like knowledge, because all there's also had knowledge, other species, but because of the, the playfulness in our culture. So the playful factor in alcohol in in the culture that we have as human, not one culture and specifically, but just in general.

20:21 And there's while he explores that theme, one thing that is an interesting what what I was just it was coming to mind as you were talking about, like how spread out and how like it's like everywhere in our society and language and stuff. He talks about like, of course, the the intersection between like the play of drama, play, role play, drama.

20:44 And then you have role play, you have role playing games. And and there's a, there's, there's, there's a reason why there's like this interconnection because there's like this overlap here of themes. There's also an overlap with rituals and the role playing and what how that's part of certain rituals. And then kind of like the certain simulation of like you're simulating something and, and of course, you know, also like I myself practice a, a martial arts.

21:12 Martial arts, that is because of the nature that is hidden with within music is capoeira, which is an Afro. Brazilian martial arts. I love that, and I've done it, you know, for, for years now. In there you never say you fight. Well, you can use the word fighting, but the basic word of saying, like you say, play capoeira, you don't say like, well, I'm going to do some capoeira.

21:33 You just say like, oh, I'm going to play some. You want to play? Oh, that was a nice game. That was a nice game. Nice. You're fighting like but you're not. It's a, it's a, it's a fight that is not very I've seen or didn't know something about dance. It almost like nature. But there's definitely definitely a Venn diagram with breakdancing for sure, because there's a lot of similar moves that are done there.

21:55 And then like the breakdancing, a lot of things where they like go like with the with the stair, that's a kick, okay. That's a kick. Like you put your your people not expecting it. You're going this side. And then this foot comes over here. And then where you're standing on one hand, that's a kick. It's a breakdancing move, but it's also a kick.

22:12 But then like that, it's it's it's it's special because, like, you don't expect to say I'm playing somebody when you're fighting them, even though it's also a sport. So like, it shouldn't be that you know, that far in the, in our, in our minds. But if you find yourself like, oh wait, there's interconnection here that I didn't expect.

22:31 So when children fight, play, fight with each other like they do all the time, the children will play fight and you'll actually hear them laughing while they're fighting. Yeah. Like giggling. There's a certain type of laughter that that you'll hear when you have, like, two boys fighting is, even if the boys are just acquaintances, they're really not that familiar with on a playground.

22:51 Like fighting to the young boys, they'll have this, like, certain kind of really unique laugh that they do while they're doing it. And it's a natural, instinctual utterance that comes to like, let the other person know that it's just play, that it's not real. It's a, there's this animals do it too. There's this instinctual little like call that basically while you're scrapping, you're basically what you're saying over and over is this is just play.

23:15 This is just play. Like don't escalate. Don't escalate. Because, you know, that does happen too. Sometimes the plague turns serious. Yeah yeah, yeah. And so this like little giggle that that people will do when they're like play fighting right. You even see adults do it. They'll say slap boxing or something and they'll start laughing. Right. It's like this.

23:34 This laughter diffuses the idea that it might be going to real, this laughter, this body language. I mean, it's every element of it. Like, you can see it from afar and know exactly what's going on. Their feet place like, they're not ready. It's two people or two people are scrapping and they're laughing about it. You wouldn't think that you wouldn't get scared, right?

23:54 But when they're if they're not, then they're like, oh shit. Because they call their telegraphing playing versus telegraphing discretion. Right. And you know, in that just you're right. I mean, when we were talking about it, the homo lutin saying it's play is another level of in thinking. Thinking is consider contrast, compare. Play is facility and grace and understanding of your environment.

24:21 It's you're able to remix it, you're able to shift it, you know, and it's it's another level of abstraction. It's it's more than homo sapiens. I agree with you there. And then the the board game right itself, the, the medium of the board game is another, another way to show that we're fighting, we're sparring, but it's just all in this safe space.

24:43 Oh yeah. In many different ways. I would say that one thing that I'm very interested, like, now that I'm very cozy up in this rabbit hole down here of the board games, is the idea of board games as a meal, and that I tell you that it feels similar to when I when I discovered that the comic books in a serious way, like not comic books, but graphic novels.

25:05 I mean, the distinction that is more formatted, but it also like it's also a reference to how it can work as a medium of storytelling, period. Just forget what you used to, forget what you used to, in this case board games or what you used to play. Think about you have a table, or if it's a table you get together and then you have a system for with a for an interaction.

25:32 And you might use some tools, some some items. That's it. And then that's it. And then you do whatever it is that you want to create in terms of the dynamics for the players, for the people doing there, what type of feelings do you want to evoke or what type of like different types of like, moments do you want the people to find themselves in at a certain point?

25:52 Do you want an arc? Do you know what an arc, or are you just trying to make a point of how like, ridiculous it is to do this in society, and then you're going to put them doing like something that this is like, oh, man, this makes no sense. Some game designers do that. Some game designers do a game just for people to get frustrated because they're making a point about it, actually.

26:12 Like what's the. Yeah, there's like the most complicated game. I was watching this, I'm a whole and she did a video, a video about, talking about this designer who made this game. I forgot it's a war game. The name of it. If it was even. Even it was even referenced in the big game, Big Bang Theory.

26:30 The the the TV show. Okay. It is a it is boring. It's a war game that is so extensive and it has so many rules and it's super long. It it's like the most, like complex and heavy board game ever. Apparently. However, the designer did it on purpose just to mess with people like spent hours and hours on it.

26:53 But it's even clear in certain parts of the rulebooks he just wants to mess with you. Like it's almost like Monty Python type of comedy. Gaining some gaming. The gamers right game. Yeah yeah yeah. And then like, and there are other games that don't do it to that extreme, but they don't make you feel somehow like comfortable about something.

27:14 Like there's this junk company game from Worley, who's a great game designer who works with Special Dynamics in ways that you might not expect in the beginning. But John Company is about you, East India Company, how you're exploiting the the India and the colonies from Britain. But they're like it makes you go through these interactions that it'll like.

27:36 There's a point about how it makes you feel. So it really makes you go through the emotional rollercoaster of being a colonizer who exploits resources and extracts things from other colonies. Well, yeah, because you have to export your other to score. You have to do certain things. So it will put you in a position where you will be.

27:51 This also the matter of like while you're distracted thinking about certain things in a system that is like a little bit more complicated than your shoots a ladder and then race with rolling the dice or a sorry game, right? Or that type of Parcheesi. In games that are a little bit more complicated, you have to be like, you will be more immersed in the in the, in the rules, and then what you need to do now and that to score that you might not expect the moment that you're going to feel or the, the, the experience that you're going to end up having at some point, you cannot be like a little bit like Sucker

28:24 Punch, like, oh, oh, I'm doing this. Oh, wow. And then when you, when you come out of the back side of that experience, I think you probably emerge with an intuition towards these type of things that you wouldn't have had otherwise. Like the game gives you a medium by what you're going to explore that space and actually be in some knowledge and intuition to doubt the reality of it right through the medium of the game that probably otherwise wouldn't have the access to it.

28:46 Yeah. So so the games are opening up different things, avenues for learning that might not be available, you know. Yeah. Which you wouldn't want to be available. And let's yeah it's experiential learning with again lessened impact is what we haven't really said lessened impact to have the experience. And you can iterate it as well. You can do it, you know repeat it and try it different ways and different approaches.

29:13 Yeah. So it becomes a dynamic space to which you could iterate as many times as you would like to. Yeah. And in different ways. And find out like different like interactions that you didn't expect. That's cool. So in video game systems they'll do this all the time in like these multiplayer online games where they have like matchmaking teams, you know, teams like randomly, randomly assigned teams.

29:33 We go do some kind of fighting or whatever it is. And what they'll do in these video games is they'll actually, like, gamify the matchmaking to make it to where you never really once you start to really progress and do well, they change up the matchmaking. They put you on poorer teams. So then you fail for a while.

29:50 And then what that does is it gets your dopamine cycle to where like the the losing streak is more powerful to keep you playing than the winning streak. Damn. And so that there's patents out there for like EA sports and and and Activision and all these different companies have patents on how they do this, algorithms of matchmaking to make it to where you stay around a 50% win rate regardless of your skills, because the idea is to keep you in a box like and keep you playing all night freaking long because you're that because you can't get a win.

30:21 You play all night long because you can't win, much like they do in casinos. How they gamify, you know, like all that stuff. Yeah, there's like there's a psychological hook and then there's another level of psychological hook and experience hook where some of the more complex games have the engineered economies. Yes. Where you're not only playing for the win, you're playing to a choir, you're playing to n, you know.

30:44 Yeah. So like I was going to say like there's, I, I watched the videos of designers in game designing conference. I think it's called GTC. I think it's a yeah, I didn't send conference, but in one of the conferences that I, that I was listening to, they were talking about like kind of like the psychology of the players.

31:03 And if I gamify and, and and considering this in terms of like what, you know, what you just want, but what you're going to have to deal with in terms of like, this is just the way people feel. And then is that how you want to, for example, like loss aversion, the concept of loss aversion, that meaning like you have somebody who acquired a building, let's say, like you were saying, I acquired this, even if that building is going to make them lose, there is an instinct, the typical human instinct, to hold on to what you already have.

31:35 Wow did not want to let go versus actual. So they will be like putting themselves at more risk of losing because they don't want to let go of the shows they made. And you can go into politics. I made this choice, and it's going to be difficult for me to admit and then retract myself from like the, the side that I'm supporting.

31:53 And the other point. But that also happens a psychologist present in gaming. And then you have game designers that get into like study this in order to like, design the game with the experience that they want, and they have to take this into consideration. Or if they don't, they will see it in the playtesting. They will see it that when they play test it, they will see that experience happen and they will have to wonder like, oh man, is that going to just like make it suck for all these people?

32:18 Or are they not playing the way I want them to because they're not getting to the point that I was expecting them. Not intended effect that ruins the spirit they originally had in mind for the game. Yeah, because it's just like a human nature that kind of like tilts it one way. And so they're thinking about all of those things, and then they're also thinking about game, the progression in the game, getting to where I want them to get.

32:39 Where does the median player achieve. You know it's like yeah. Oh yeah a lot of playtesting a lot of playtesting. Wow. Another idiom that someone would say around gaming is like, look, this isn't a game. Yeah, right. I think this so, so in other words, there's real consequences in out here. Like there's no lease barn. Yeah, yeah. So in the game of of military operations, there's I think there's a, there's a degree of gamification much along the lines of what we're talking about is that you'll get so focused down a rabbit hole, you were talking about this colonizing game where you're like, you know, fire nuances of, like, how to exploit resources as a colonizer,

33:17 like you're now your objective. Is that right? So you're way downstream. You're no longer thinking about the overarching big, big geopolitical thing happening. You're focused on how do I get to achieve this micro goal? Same thing happens in military operations. You're still focused on the mission at hand that you're not time, don't have time or the convenience or the, the opportunity to really contemplate the larger infrastructure that you're participating in.

33:42 You're participating in the mission at hand, and it's life or death. Yeah. It couldn't be more states couldn't be higher. And so you're so focused on that. That's the that's the full capacity of your mind. And your imagination is focused on the task at hand, regardless of what you're actually, the campaign that you're actually contributing to at a much larger scale is way outside of your control.

34:01 Right? So what I'm saying. Oh, yeah. So another way you can kind of game the gamer if you will, or have be gamified by life is it keeps people so laser focused on some of the nuclear right that they're, that they're figuring out the rules and, and downstream in this lower level subroutine of gaming. Right in life, in real life to where you have the basically or people being gamified, it's much of what happens on social media or scrolling and all that kind of stuff.

34:28 And like even the next thing, it's like, the sun's coming up. You're like, what the fuck happened? Thing is, because the the, the scrolling is gamified, it's like it's a video of no interest, no interest, no interest. Now all of a sudden, you want you to be really interested in right now, all of a sudden 2030 with no interest, and then all of a sudden one that you're really interested in again, we're at or somewhat interested.

34:46 So it's like just, just this gamified process of algorithm right within algorithm within an algorithm. So it's subroutine within sub, you know, like don't get people to focus on something like, wealth inequality okay. Get them focus on rates and equity. Right. So get someone so focused on the minutia of that subroutine game that's just been gamified because race is just a construct anyway.

35:11 Social construct. Yeah. Social construct. And give people so gamified and wrapped up into that micro routine or that micro game for like a better term, right to where then the big game is, you know, that's really going on. You end up contributing to that big game in layers that are games within games is where layers of control. Yes.

35:32 Yeah. Because you have human nature on one side, of course. And then you have certain aspects of like the way the brain works with like dopamine and then what is like triggering what in your brain and which emotions and then what can like become a chain reaction and such. And then and then you can have that play out in real life.

35:49 But then there's also a factor when people very consciously put you in that situation where the drums call or they just want you so hyper focused or so like, you know, hyped about this one thing that they're not paying attention over here to what's happening, that the people that are sending you to like, know very well that is happening, but they don't want you to look over there.

36:09 So like when you have that type of control, then I think that's when you see that gamification. So you see like the design, like the game design, because you have the nature itself of the brain and human nature. But then like, you know, when somebody kind of like behind the curtains, it's kind of like pulling some strings, like, I want this to go this way.

36:26 Yeah, yeah, they can exploit that. And you, you know, and all these people, including myself, I know I've to use another idiom. I've been set back to square one more than once, you know, and it's just and it is, it's you get reset, you get shifted, you get moved and controlled because you're not understanding the system within systems that you're stuck in.

36:50 And these this inception, you've got to break out of it. You've got to fourth wall that you've got to realize what hierarchy of needs you're stuck under. You've I mean, it's just all of these things. And it's such a high level game that requires so much thinking and effort. And it's a cooperative game that we've all got to work together on.

37:11 I mean, it's just is it possible that the that the that the actual like lessons learned throughout the nuance of gaming would actually start to help you reveal these these like real life games? I, I think I think there's a net of intelligence built into gaming for fairer. Well, yeah. Because like, I think that's, I forgot how we, we got to that point.

37:33 But, we were talking about kind of like. Oh, yeah, when we were talking about, the book behave by the owner and about how you can how you can make you feel at some point, like you make no choice of your own. But then, like, I, I was thinking of the idea of a false dichotomy, which is like like this false.

37:55 Like just like a cereal. Cereal. Some games. Right. That you have so much and it's just like a tendency in the human, in human society to think about it for binary ways. And then because now you're thinking about kind of like, you know, kind of like breaking the fourth wall and then kind of like levels breaking through the levels of deception to get to the reality or to like a macro point of view, I go a macro point of view is the best you can hope for, right?

38:23 But then it always have that. The thing is, like even politically, even if you think you're on the right side or any type of politics, not just like the parties of a government, but politics in real life, in, in just everything. When you think about it, you have to like the smartest thing that you can do, I think is kind of like to focus on keeping that awareness of yourself.

38:46 So it's not a matter that I, I figure it out. I know which is the right side that I'm on. It's about always keeping that awareness of being vulnerable to go back to and then keeping that awareness of, like, I always have to have that openness because it's kind of like a you have to I think we have to understand humility is key here to understand how much we don't know and how much we can fall ourselves into a trap.

39:13 So like understanding complexity is being open to complexity. It's not that you don't have to make a choice between two options. That's not it, right? You might have to do that. And yeah, we do it. But then it's like always having that awareness of kind of like the scope beyond it. Yes. To then kind of like just break away from where society will you kind of like wedge us into, like where you feel like there's no option, like this is where there is another option.

39:40 If you can step back and look, there always is a way to react or move that is unexpected or wasn't playing for. Right? I mean, like there's a theory that there's no way, that there's no scope where that's absolutely real. But I do believe so. I would like to believe so. And I at least I do feel in the very least, I do feel that I have more agency to move and less trapped in a bubble.

40:07 The more I scope out, the more let's go about it. And then no matter what, in what situation, ever in life, you know, have that vulnerability and then be open to like, okay, let me just step back and let's reassess this usually and objectivity. And to be able to back up, be humble, realize where you might have screwed up and to look at it in the macro.

40:29 Yeah. And actually when you say I would say that it's not just objectivity, but it's more than objectivity is being clear and aware of how impossibly objective, how impossible it is to be fully objective and then still try to achieve an objective by understanding the subjectivity that is always precedent. So I don't know. I don't know, but I'm not I think I get what you're saying.

40:58 You, in essence, laugh at the futility of it and yet still participate in the game. You say the game is futile, but I still must participate. I can still laugh at it. I can still have some mobility because I see the ridiculousness of it. I gain the fire as a coping mechanism all the time. Personal, but yeah, gamify all the time my mind to cope with things sometimes.

41:19 Yeah, I know, it's like, okay, so in terms of epistemology took out like, to clarify, how well I, I, I love the class that I took in college because like, for me, it was like, wow, this is so cool. And is the idea of like, you know, when you talk about objectivity not being attainable, that's something that was just, you know, very exploited in the 19th century and beginning of 20 century.

41:42 And then in terms of like, you know, this not being something that you can reach. So like the question is like, then what can you reach? Is it all? Everything is relative. And it's just kind of like whatever, anything. There's no values, no more, no moral of anything. No, no, no, that's not it. So like kind of like my takeaway from that is that it's always a matter of approximation of percentages of like okay, so this is like my the best that I can do.

42:07 And I'm going to do my best effort to make a wise decision from what I know, without abandoning the idea that I could be wrong. But then we're going to do our best decision ever, you know, and I think this given goes to like, I'm and I'm getting into a topic that is like maybe controversial death penalty. Like if you take somebody somebody's life, how certain and how perfect your system is, that you will take that sacred responsibility of a human life and taking it away.

42:33 And then even though many moments, even myself, I feel like, oh, definitely this person should not exist in the world, right? You know, we have those moments, but systematically speaking, it will put you in that spot of like the certainty of truth and then how attainable it is and how humble we are about, like making important decisions while understanding the futility.

42:56 Like you were saying, child. Wow. That was that was deep. That's all right. Yeah, that was awesome. I loved it. And I mean, I think we're all with you on this, on this journey, but go ahead. What are we going to say? Oh, we stole it from you. We got that on podcast now so that.