0:00 So so children, right? They automatically do this. It's a natural fault. They fall into it naturally. So, like, I've noticed my whole life. And remember when I was a kid, right? When, when children don't have anything to do, they make a game every time. Every time. Every time. You can count on it. It's very reliable. Kids will get together and make up games on the fly if they need to write to, satisfy their their their brains.

0:29 Like the the children have a natural. Children will be in a a war zone, for example, and in a in a dire, desperate situation playing games not only just to cope, but because they, they, they must it's a natural thing that we must do. And then adults are just children with masks, right? So like adults are the same way.

0:52 Adults have a desire to gamify things all the time and we do all the time, right? We just have sophisticated language that we put around it. But really playing games. Right. And so this whole idea of game playing, going from as you hear our children playing right now. Right. Making up their own games, making up their own rules.

1:11 Oh, you're the jailer. We're in jail. Yeah, yeah, just fantasy and imagination. They're just automatically going to do it. I mean, everywhere I've ever been in the world, I've seen the same thing everywhere. Kids just do the same thing making up the games. And then. So like I just said, adults are just shortening disguise, you know, with, with degrees of, of, sophistication.

1:33 So a lot of times false sophisticated. Right. But like you notice all the time throughout all the echelons of group dynamics and everything with amongst adults, is that all these games people play with each other all the time, right? Like, some of them have very strong consequences to like life or death consequences, maybe in some cases. Right. Games with people.

1:54 And, you hear another Adam like, you know, that guy plays by his own set of rules or, or those people play by a different set of rules, right? Or he, you know, goes to the beat of his own drum. Same idea. All these nods, all these, all these like phrases built in, showcasing time and time again how there's just games.

2:15 They're really just games. They're layers of games that people are just playing on a very sophisticated scale that we call society, that we call civilization, you know? And so anyway, I just noticed that amongst children, they're just there. They wear it on the sleeve, but like, it's just wide open and out in the open for sure. Right. Whereas whereas adults are right.

2:37 So children getting together and playing is critical. I mean, mission critical to their success in their life because they're playing very sophisticated games in the future. So the best that they can, you know, play play games when they're a kid, make them up, change the rules, learn how to cheat, right. Learn how to game the system, if you will.

2:58 The way better off they're going to be set up for. Yeah. So gaming is a part in modern society and I think it's always been. But I think especially now in this complex modern society, I think that, you know, having our kids be expert gamers, not just the video games I'm talking about across the board, is doing them a huge service.

3:17 And I'm going to add to that and say, I think the analog gaming is the experiential gaming is probably more critical because it brings in so many more components instead of component. Yeah. Social body language, social dynamic. Yeah. Yes. And and this gaming mechanic the helps us organize and explore and you know it brings knowledge and experience you just would not have if you were just sitting by yourself.

3:46 And I mean, you're right. You know, it is a key mechanic. It is as you introduced this, the concept of homologous, I mean, it is a play is a key mechanic for understanding. Yeah. I mean, to what you were saying to Chris about, you know, the this being basic for the development of children. It is one of the questions in the pediatric office about the development of the questionnaire.

4:09 Like at certain age, like the kids is like two or 3 or 4 years old. The question will be like, did they start doing pretend play? Because that's going to be like pretend plays cannot be part of like a kind of like a it's a skill that once you develop it, it'll help you socialize, connect to the world and such.

4:27 And then children that do not develop that, then they have, you know, it becomes it doesn't mean that they cannot be happy and they cannot contribute to society, of course, but it'll be bumpy, you know, because like, you will lose a tool there to connect and play with society because like, you need to be able to have that play, that interaction.

4:45 So like socialists, there's an element in socialization, in socializing and interacting with other humans, that there's definitely a play there. Pretend play, you know, there's that role playing element. Yeah. And I've been going ahead and yeah. Because like then you're like you're putting yourself in the shoes of somebody else. Yes. How much does that mean? I mean actors, people who study acting can talk.

5:08 You know, about how much that changes you, the impact of, like, going deep into somebody in somebody else's shoes. So even if you don't agree with that. But just like the empathy, the, the, the exercise of empathy is deep. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess the takeaway of the entire conversation summarize it in the most simplest way I could possibly say is that, you know, we're we're all in the game of life, right?

5:35 Right, right. At the end of the day, we're all like, in the game of life is there. And, boy, it's what is it complicated and and does it have layers and does it have it surmountable? Rules. And sometimes the rules are just there to make it. So you're frustrated. Yeah. You're playing someone else's game a lot of times, right?

5:53 Yeah. And many times I think also that like you, you game yourself. I think that we all game ourselves to some extent like this false paradigms that we write, like we make up things in our own mind, I think sometimes and play little mind games with ourselves or there's no mind game, right? Might play a mind game.

6:13 Yeah, because there's lots of sleight of hand that can be done that can trick anyone's mind into, you know, all types of ideas and thoughts of beliefs in that. And my gosh. So like literally at the end of the day, I mean, gaming is the topic of life. Are you talking about gaming? You're talking about life. Yeah. Let's let's be fair.

6:32 That's got to be a a true conclusion when you're really talking about the finer points of gaming. Ultimately you're talking about life. I guess this exercise of self-awareness is asking yourself, which game am I playing here? Day. Yeah. Because like, you might think you might be wrong. About what? About that. So yeah. Totally. What you're saying. Yeah. And if you find yourself then caught up in playing a game too much, right.

6:59 That's not in your best interest. You're playing a game that's not boosting you, that's not helping you in your life, right? Ultimately, then you're losing it. Another game that's being played simultaneously that you might not even be aware of. Like, for example, let's say that someone sits there and they're the good game and they're playing video games every waking moment that they can.

7:16 They're playing video game, right? We're not paying attention. Their health. They're not paying attention to their career, not paying attention to their family, not paying attention, their finances. Yeah. Instead of rules like I'm playing by set of rules because I'm playing by the rules, I'm arguing with my wife because, like, I think about this, this and that, but then you're missing out on like, what is it that you know about these, these and other factors that you're missing from the other point of view because you're not being able to, like, switch the shoes that you're, you know, placing yourself into.

7:43 So like, which game are you playing their demands game or you're playing like the human game, like, why don't you just forget about anything and just try to be there where the other person is and blah, blah, blah, blah. What that makes me think of is the the nerds that I've lamented that hadn't, that they weren't all about this one game.

8:02 Right. But they can't transfer those. They try to transfer those same skills to life or to this other facet of life. And they just can't. They fail at it. They just don't understand the rules of this other paradigm. And they get defeated and then they don't try again or they get crushed. You know, I've seen so many I've worked with so many people who were on various sides of the spectrum and would get I mean, I'm like, I know you have the social skills to beat this part of the game.

8:28 I'm right here with you. I'm encouraging you. And then I just see them get crushed and defeated them. They just don't try anymore. It's like, you know, and that's happened from elementary school through adulthood. I've seen that. And it's just it's it's a terrible thing that we do to ourselves. And you know, you get so stuck in in the games.

8:49 There's another trope there too, I think, like so many people are automatically have lost the game like before they even started playing. They're very lost. Yeah, they're very lost because not only do they not understand it, they never really a player in the game right there, there is brought in to enter the open and the upon in the adjuster.

9:09 Yeah porn is a good word here. Yeah. Like they're brought into the game just as a game a game element to another game. Right. So like some people play games all the time thinking that they're, they're really hustling backwards. They think they're hustling and doing a good job playing a game, but they're really just hustling backwards for somebody else.

9:29 Right. You know I'm talking about. Oh no. No. Yeah. No. From some somebody who was in the military. So like for me like there's a lot of death into it, you know, when you're like, sent on a mission, there's so much they, you know, they there's on, on your mind. So much at risk, so much at hand in there.

9:46 But then there's also like, you know, the fact of like, are you what game is being played overhead above all of this, you know. Exactly, exactly. And then your game. No. That's right. And then like, are you set up for failure or success. You know, like in terms of like what they expect from you and what can you make sure you take with you out of this game.

10:05 Right, I read it. Yeah. So like they may want you to win, but is that win condition the real wing condition like do you win when you win or do you lose when you win? Yes, yes. And, you know, there's another colloquialism. Idiom. Pick your battles. Yeah. We go. Yeah. Pick your battles. In other words, pick which game you play strategically.

10:24 Sometimes you lose a battle to win the war dead. Intentionally lose the battle because you know that that's going to help you win the war. Here's a story that this brought up for me. I think we may have all heard of it. It's a fairly old one. This kid got attacked by a moose, right. And he had been playing a lot of World War craft.

10:43 One, the things there is facing death. Right. And so he had large hunter class. Yeah. The Hunter class that you can smell called feigned death. Yeah, yeah. And so you play dead, right? Yeah. And, you know, then the predator leaves, right? The attacker leaves. Well, he transferred without understanding that this was going to work. He transferred those skills from World of Warcraft to real life.

11:08 He feigned death when he got attacked by the moose, and he survived. Okay, well, I mean, I got dead. He got lucky because that not all animals are the same. No, no, no. Yeah. Lucky. And who knows if that would have worked, you know, and on so many levels. But he got really lucky. And, you know, he made an equivalency that worked in his favor.

11:33 Oh, yeah. Well, there's a reason why that is just like a natural behavior in certain animals. Yes, absolutely. That we were talking about it the other night. Megan was talking about how some of that this this bat. Right. There we go. Play dead. This this bat of play dead. When Sue and her were trying to get out of the house, I was telling the story about a lizard that did the same thing in a Burlington Coat Factory, you know?

11:59 Yeah, but but, yes, I mean, we keep bringing up these idioms and colloquialisms while playing. Then all these things that go back to go back to this whole thing, every type of posturing or any type of right is a version of it's not sometimes like an animal kingdom. It's like life or death. But, you know, it's still like the posturing itself is a game.

12:19 It's playing a game. It's pretending something right. To try to change the rules of this little big central mask. Yes. Right. Look, how big I am is my fur is all raised up. Right face. Yeah. So you see, like, the the more we talk, the more coming up with these idioms of like, so integrated into it. So you know really to my ultimate sadness right.

12:45 Is like it seems like the evidence suggests is this we're in like layers of these fucking games, man. And most of them are by ourselves. And we'll never know or meet the designer of the game we're in. Right as I said. Right, right. And and, you know, to be honest, I'm like 100%, 99.9% playing other people's games and don't even know don't even know the rules, right?

13:07 Yep. Yeah, they won't work. We're all stuck in games, the machinations of which were set in motion eons before us. Yeah, yeah. There's like a, there's some blurriness that I think, I think it'll be useful for people to get more comfortable with the blur of, of things in life, not to make it all relative and significant, but to keep a certain awareness while still trying to, you know, assert a certain, you know, you know, a firm standpoint of like, values, respect, you know, these are not things that you should just, like make it.

13:44 But then, like if you have certain morals and values as a north, keep that north. But then like keep in mind that you may not know the map like you think you know. Here we go. So yeah, yeah. Like you're saying, be willing to retool. Be willing to step back and be humble. Because to learn you have to put you have to to pick up more.

14:04 You have to enter your hands. And so I mean, what you said about like, being like, you know, like people that are get so much into I mean, like, good at playing like one game or one thing in life, but then usually, like, suck at another. There's a term that I learned, the one trick pony. A one trick pony.

14:22 Yes, pony. Yeah, I guess that's one point. That one term in English, the term that I was thinking about in, was that I learned in the German class that German have the term idiot. She's like the idiot of kind of like just one field, a good one thing. But it's like that. You can see really good at this thing.

14:40 Yeah, yeah. So like, he's an idiot, but he's like, very smart at that spurt, you know, you're like very good at one thing. So like. Yeah. So you can be like, I don't know, rocket scientist said this just suck as a follower. And I mean, you're shades of that. It may not capture the same as the German word, the same connotations, but idiots of yeah don't understand that Einstein wasn't the greatest husband.

15:02 Yeah, I didn't mean to, like, get into rocket scientists or like scientists, and let's do it like they're like we're evil opportunity shade. Right? Right. But I think, like, it's like, yeah, that's like it's shade for everybody because we all have something that, you know, we know more than somebody else. But then like, there's also a ignorance that will never completely go away.

15:24 But you got to chip away those blind spots and be aware of them. Unlike his buddy he was playing tennis with, he refused to protect those blind spots and improve him. Yeah, just pedal to the metal for that guy. That was what it was. It was like, yeah, you have a blind spot. I want to be faster. Yeah, that's a good story.

15:43 There's a lot of value. Like there's education in that story. You know for sure. It's a it's it's not as good as the boy that cried wolf, but it's decent here. There's, So the last thing I want to talk about gaming, if you don't mind, is this idea of, like, the feature of gaming. So the social media algorithm is clearly profiling, right?

16:02 Right. Your habits. I mean, it's got all the data, those where you're at, geolocation, what you're doing 24 over seven. You're you're spy device I mean smartphone right is like gaming your life. And what it's doing is creating a gamer profile for you. Right. And in their game it's how can I sees as much of your attention as possible in order to then ultimately sell you something or sell sell your attention.

16:26 Sell. You need to sell your attention. Yeah, yeah. And captivate your imagination and basically gamify you. And to do so, it has to create a profile on you. Right? Which is not hard to do. And this profile, which is really ironic and interesting, can then be fully gamified, right? Once you have a character profile, for example, like in Dungeons and Dragons.

16:50 Yeah, you create a character profile and then you role play that character because you mentioned role playing games, and some people can get so enraptured with that role play. They play this over the course of months, and if their character dies in a campaign, they, like, lose their dead. Like, you know, that's like something some part of them just tagging, but the same thing as possible.

17:10 So I think the future of like, where gaming is going is gaming. I think it would be customizable ultimately to where you have really sophisticated, hyper intelligent superintelligent AI systems that are basically creating the ultimate gains for your profile. Right. Like, you can imagine these incredible game designers that are extremely intelligent. You own a lot of these games built up by amazing game developers.

17:35 Right now, these game developers are only human. They have, you know, the most likely very brilliant people. Right? But wait until you have like a 2000 IQ hyper intelligence making your game right. I think that if we're not aware of how human beings can be gamified, I think we potentially could be about to be getting gamed like we've never been gamed before.

18:00 Oh for sure. For sure is where I'm going with the compliment. No. You're right. Absolutely. What I keep thinking is like then, I mean, like with this whole AI thing, I think, like one thing that it's that is critical. It's always the humans behind it because, like, this is like the Terminator two Judgment Day type of thing.

18:20 People keep thinking about the, you know, them taking over the world and what I'm really scared about, and I think about some people like miss, is that it's never like the AI as an entity by itself. That is the thing is the humans behind it. So like, it's not the fact that, you know, they're going to like the AI is going to figure out that it's like, oh no, no, no, no, no, I should just like, not follow you guys.

18:43 Like I don't think that's really I don't I'm not afraid that that's going to happen. And even if it could happen, it's I think from what I understand, it's too far away for us to really that is not really a fear. But while we keep thinking about, you know, maybe robots taking over, we are being taken over by greedy people.

19:00 And then who's designing what game for what, just to, like, exploit you for money. So you're stuck on the screen as long as possible and then like you are as you get older, I mean, you need for it because you get all the gaming tastes. You're like flipping card or throwing dice, and it'll give you everything you want with the interactions that you want, but then you're missing out.

19:21 A who's putting you there, who's gaming you, which is like, what is not the A game? What game are you in that you need to be playing or you're not playing it? Yeah. It's like in this game. Yeah. Because like the AI is not an entity by itself. Yeah, it can learn by itself, but it is being directed like you're putting AI.

19:40 It is Goldie's functions, goals, goals that you get it and goals. The corporation that designed it get it right and they'd want to make money out of it. So in the end you're not you're being gained by the AI, but the one in charge is like the people making money for the AI. Those are that's for the time you're thinking like, hey, I like Darth Vader.

20:01 Well, Papa, time is the human behind it. And also, I think, like with our gaming, one thing that is good about it is that, you are a little bit detached from that. If you have a is designing board games, that's been something that's definitely been thrown around among a about designers and people who want to be designers.

20:24 Like from what I've, you know, read online from the community. But in the end so far the value of because it's such a it's about human interaction and it's so key where we actually like designers will discover things in the process, seeing humans play it. So like, there's such a human element into it that I think that you can definitely AI can evolve to make games that are playable and can be fun, but I think the most valuable ones will continue to be humans being surprised by humans instead of like AI, kind of like, you know, grading algorithms that take you to a, you know, kind of like accumulating information and then, you know,

21:11 from that information saying like, well, this seems to be like what you like, and I'm not here for Butler, I'm here for a human. And I want to know, like, hey, the butler is this game. And I want like the butler to give me a good service. But I would also like to feel a connection with the butler.

21:25 And then that's never going to happen with a robot. It can be faked, but it can never really happen humanly. So this is also an important distinction I think you brought me to with what you were saying. Yes. The connection I, I think it's going to be really hard to achieve because for so long the AI is going to be in that uncanny valley, that area where it kind of upsets us, where it's almost real enough, but not quite.

21:48 But also is there also with analog games, we can put them down there, we can separate ourselves from them. We can stop with these limbs. We're constantly engaged, and they're going to want us to continue to be engaged in these limbs and the people behind them. They make money on the amplification of our delusions. They make money by worsening our breaks with reality, whereas an analog game just might strengthen our connections to reality and strengthen our facility with reality, because we're role playing things that are going to happen because they were designed out of human experience.

22:29 Yeah, it'd be hard to like, you know, totally simulate and analog kinesthetic, you know, component game. And you just, you know, you can't like, really like simulate in a tactile way, like rolling dice here. There's, there's a, there's a, there's a thin there that's just it's tangible. It's kinesthetic. It's in your face. It's the sound of the dice, the feeling of the.

22:50 And you can feels like it's more random than. Yeah, you're really hard to simulate that type of overall emotional experience in that connection. That would be hard. But I think that we might be overestimating our, you know, I think we might be overestimating our sophistication. I think that it's almost like the game of life. You know, that simulation where, like, these really complexities come out of this really simple set of rules?

23:12 I think that that is going to be what the future is going to be revealed as we continue to progress in science and technology, I think we're going to find out the fabric of reality is a lot simpler under underlying rules than we know than we think, and that we think that our own consciousness and intellect and all this kind of stuff, I think we overestimate it because we have a reason to overestimate.

23:30 Right? We have a bias built in towards overestimating those things. I think that human emotion might not, at the end of the day, the sophisticated as we think it is. And I don't think human necessarily consciousness or intellectual intellect is really is as masterful or divine as we think it is either. For example, we're just in a church the other day watching a we're inviting to a wedding ceremony, and it was a Catholic wedding.

23:52 And I my whole mind the whole time was thinking about just, this is one big game. This is all circus. It's a effing three ring circus that I'm watching right here. And it's all just about the cash flow. It's just the cash flow. It's all that is is. So clearly people are doing all these mannerisms and putting stuff in their mouth and do it on callbacks.

24:12 It sounds cultish. The person says something and then everyone else in the Abbey and spike, you just mumble some utterance back. It's just, you know, really simple cadence and, you know, right then the, you know, the, the, the box is bursting with money, you know, and that's just the game. The game is just like put up this really facile, you know, bullshit gain and get all these people playing this hustling backwards.

24:39 They're hustling backwards, playing this game, and they're giving their hard earned money to nothing to write to this abstract thing. Now that's just human intelligence, correct? Creating this. Right. Wait until it's super intelligence. What the hell is that going to be able to do to us? As far as gamification, that's what I'm talking. That's a scary thing. Seeing what humans can do to other humans to gamify humans.

25:02 Right. Behavior and actions. What happens when it's a super intelligence doing that? I know, but again, I would say like be ready for human surprise or be ready to be surprised yourself because like for example, there's a I would say like I'm thinking of the military guy or saying like, well, what are the questions you're trying to answer with that game?

25:22 It might be that the question is that you're you're answering questions when you were saying, but maybe the question is that they're the people that are believing in it. Those are not the questions that are trying to answer. So in terms of context, you know, there's I'm thinking like, even so, there's the this play that, that, that I, I, I read once and that I love this play.

25:43 I and we never did it in the, in the theater class. But it's a play where there's these people that lie to the community and fake and do kind of like play roles in the community to do good. Like they will like somebody will address us a sailor and then say goodbye to the sailors because nobody was there to say bye to them.

26:04 But then they will like, say bye and then kind of like make connections are where some people needed a connection they didn't have otherwise. So like, they're kind of like some kind of like hidden superheroes in a way. But then they're like this like secret agency. And then at some point the, the main character goes and plays a role of this strange son that was lost to this old lady.

26:25 Okay. And and then he's there. He. And then at some point, it becomes a little bit weird that she still hasn't realized that that's not her son, because she's kind of, like, all senile and stuff. And I'm following you a little bit of the end there. But in the end, she knew the whole time. But it's the game she was playing was not the game that he was playing.

26:47 She was connecting with somebody and she was getting an experience. Like, what experience was she looking for? So she knew the reality behind it. She knew the fakeness of it. But then she would she she knew the experience that she wanted. And there's there's been cases where people have certain beliefs spiritually. Well, they can I, I cannot tell you one specific case, but I've seen that happen even like in like stories or media, where you have somebody that says like, well, yeah, it's possible that God doesn't exist.

27:16 It's possible that all this is just a scheme. Sure. But I'm here to get this and I'm getting this experience out of. Okay. Fair enough. So, like, you know, it's kind of like a matter of like, it's also like a question of like, in what context? Who's looking to get what and then how important it is. What is important to you to that.

27:37 Yeah. That's tricky. Yeah. Yeah it is. And I mean those games that you know we're talking about being in the grip of, in the 2008 Q IQ, artificial general intelligence. And in all of these things I am tending to agree with Shadia here that we should be. I bet we're going to be surprised at how you react to that and how you if they try it.

28:00 Yeah, I'm I'm optimistic as well. I hope there is some type of X factor that is, you know, eluding my imagination. That is what you're talking about. And maybe it is true that another colloquialism here, another idiom is that it's it's not if you want or lose, it's how you play the game. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And that's what you're saying.

28:21 You're like, what are you playing the game for? Maybe it's not. Which games are you playing them now you play this game, but maybe it's how you're playing the game is the actual experience right? Maybe at the end of the day that's the game for yourself. It's like, how did you play it? And I'm gonna say like for example, that, that is not worth trying to like, you know, show people something where they've been deceived, where it matters for them.

28:43 You definitely have people that are in close. And it's and it matters a lot to have somebody be able to be rescued from cult or being exploited. That's a reality. So like there it's again, you know, there's you can get the we can get lost in the matter of like this. Relatively less like which game are you playing.

29:01 What are you trying to get out of this like. Oh, so it's fine if you get deceived. Not really. That's not the the point. But then whenever you if you feel frustrated about, a system, it's it's kind of like several things out of it because there are some people that do get something out of it, but it's a matter of you have to also at the same time, even if it's like even if some people are getting something positive out of it, doesn't mean that you're not going to speak truth to power about like exploitations.

29:30 Things are getting wrong. So you might have people in the Catholic Church that for them, that ceremony, that ritual is very important to them. And that for me, that's fine. I do care about the Catholic Church, what it's doing about this, and then and then, you know, abuses from the priests, of course, and then how they manage the money and the, the honesty, like, let them women be preached or not, as you know, these are things that I'm like, well, yeah, I can understand you're playing that game, but you shouldn't.

30:00 Right, right, right, right, right. You start looking at societal impacts and where there's the interception of, you know, hey, the Catholic Church is pretty much one of the richest organizations on the face of the earth. And, you know, their influence. And if they're an altar boy, you're playing a dangerous game. So another another idiom for you. I told you there's going to keep coming as a writer.

30:20 Yeah. So that was a terrible joke. I'm so sorry. No, no, I'll be really embarrassed. His journey is the reward at the end of the day. Yeah, but it depends on the. I would say like it depends. I'm not saying. Go ahead. No, no, no, I will. I know it really depends on the case, but we think like you read it, we really need to, like, be aware and and careful of kind of like context in different people, different cases.

30:47 And then also like socially like as a structure, as a system. Sure. Like it's not that we don't question the system or we don't question a game that is being played, but there's that and the you know, there's also like what some people get out of it and it's like, okay, that's me. You do you get married, do that.

31:01 And that's, you know, and if that's if that's enough, let it be enough. And, you know, and to circle back to something we didn't give a full treatment to when we're looking at those systems and we're picking them apart, and we see some simple rules that are coming together that create emergent behaviors. Because you were talking about emergent systems.

31:19 And when we start taking these things apart and we start analyzing them more in depth because AI is creating these things, and we have to understand what the machinations of what it's creating. Then we start seeing these simple rules, these emergent systems. And, you know, we start getting more credence to things like, what? Cellular automata. Right. Basically the idea is it's one of the simplest systems you could have to explore a, a system of life, but it's you got a grid, you got you can toggle on each cell in that grid as being alive or dead.

32:01 And there are rules as to whether or not the cell survives the next round. If it has so many cells near it, it, but not too many to crowd it out so that it won't get resources. It lives if it's, you know, when there are different circumstances that let it survive. So you can very complex patterns emerge from very simple set of rules.

32:22 Yeah. The it'll be like a set of, you know, four rules or whatever. Right. Yeah. And and that's the idea. There's all these different cellular automata rule sets that people could explore. And but yeah, that that's kind of what Chris is talking about, how our reality just might be made. All the games we played just might be made from these simple bedrock, tiny little things.

32:46 I'm still actually wondering what curiosity about what you're saying, Chris, in terms of like the sense of like whichever game that is that you were, that you're playing with this social structure or social, social customs, right? When you throw the wild, the wild card of the AI in there, like what does what does it do? What is the result there?

33:07 I mean, or but then like my question is, will the also like, how wild is that as a wild card. Because any again AI is a tool. So whatever it does, AI in terms of you know, my question would be and I'm not trying to provide an answer. It's just me wondering if you put AI to try to work with the systems of society in terms of beliefs and, and rituals and customs and stuff like that, and, and or use of money.

33:34 How much is this going to be like allowed to run on its own and not be constrained by the powers that be that go like, nope, nope. I'm like, oh wait, it's showing up. Like like when the I started to like what they were saying, that it was being so woke. It started putting Nazis in black people as Nazis like.

33:53 And you remember when that happened and the Google had to, like, backtrack of like, oh no, no, we have to make it, you know, so that it doesn't like, do whatever. It's one because it can do some wrong things that are like that. Yeah. This is just wrong. Yeah. So like, and then they can backtrack on that.

34:08 So what else are they going to backtrack on whenever we don't. We're not I mean because that yeah that was wrong. But then what about something that is not necessarily wrong. But they we just don't like it. Or but people in Silicon Valley don't want that or the government. So social media for example like content creators. Yeah. Because people have socially influencers.

34:28 And I guess we're content creators at this point. Right? So, content creators and stuff like this and people that post their life on social media and these platforms or whatever, if you and then consuming it, like do it scrolling or whatever, you know, consuming in one way or another. Yeah. What what what we're intrinsically doing when you look at the in again, gamified manner, right, is we're actually contributing a tremendous amount of free creative resources and labor to a system that we don't even have a slightest ownership of any not even not even a skin.

35:00 Like, we don't even have a seat at the table. Right? Right. So the thousands and thousands and millions of people that have created content for social media, that social media is then, you know, delivered to all these people, so they make the product, someone else made the product for free. They distribute the product for very low cost and then get a huge reward from distributing that product, because now they have and the stream of content to which they can keep other people entertaining, amused, and then the people on the other end there consuming the content are also providing their labor, contributing to the system.

35:31 Right. And so the gamification that we call social media, it's just a term that describes now the net effect on humanity is that we're being gamed hard core by now. These new, incredibly wealthy individuals have that own these companies. No offense to any particular person, but for the Zuckerberg's, the Musk's and all those kind of people, right, are now owning our are not only our time and our energy or our creative energies for free labor.

35:58 We're laboring for free because we've been gamed by this social media system with no guarantee of a payout. Well, in fact, it's it's it's no return on investment if you do the math. Right, right. And so, that's just the tip of the iceberg in my opinion, because the people that are engineering this are smart, no doubt about it.

36:18 But they're only human smart. Now when we start adding hyper intelligence, this, we might not even know what the next social media quote unquote saying is. See what I'm saying? We might be subject to game of gamified, resources that we just can't even see at all. Like I have enough intelligence to see the game here, right?

36:40 To some extent, because of how much I've gained my whole life. But and we then gamed and Ben gamed and even in those point, we can't always exit said game. We might see it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So it's becoming it's becoming intrinsic to just daily norms. So what I'm saying. So being becoming being gamed by the system is becoming a nor a like it's who saw it coming.

37:08 Yeah. You I'm guessing you guys know about the whole structure of Roblox right in the center of the world in roadblocks. We just got we just got $75 of freaking charges because our kid figured out how to order robot bucks. But then, like what? Asteroids. What I find disturbing. Yeah, but what I find disturbing is what I found out how it works in terms of for the people designing worlds in Roblox.

37:32 Right. The people designing the worlds. Oh, yeah. Of them are kids, right? And then they don't get almost basically nothing. And they're supposed to be able to get something. But what you get out of that labor, it's absolutely abusive. And it is like done to children. So like what you're talking about in terms of like, you know, exploitation of creation by this tool and then you have these people like making like ridiculous amounts of money by just having these people engaged to like, you know, it's like 18 to 28 year old females right now.

38:03 The number of them doing OnlyFans stuff is insane. Like it's we would never but the number of them making livable money off of it is much less than the number doing it. That's better than Roblox. Only fast is better than Roblox, because you're better off getting mute on the hands and being a kid in rope, right? Right. Or being even an adult game designer.

38:24 There are articles on adult game designers that talk about how cutthroat it is and how hard it is to make money, but only fans. Yeah, you're going to make them when the strippers will have a better salary. Yeah. So I guess I guess there's a bit of the robots I whatever. Yeah. It roblox. Yeah. But, you know what I'm saying though, is that the of the day is that like a majority of people that do start doing that kind of thing, I don't think probably end up, you know, hitting it big.

38:49 And, you know, I think that it's just another, another exploitative. And this is all within the human domain. I think when we start pushing the envelope of hyper intelligence, we enter a whole new, you know, potentiality of exploitation of this now normal free labor component. It's getting a little outside the domain of the game conversation here, but I think it is the ultimate gamification of humanity.

39:13 And, so, boy, we need our children prepared by teaching them all these different games so they can see all these different angles so that when they start to encounter this in real life, they can see the game and know, you know, if they want to play it. Because these games they're producing and amplifying delusion delusions become a renewable resource through gaslighting, through, you know, it's it's much more than will or anything else trees.

39:40 I mean, it's this AI mirrors us and amplifies our delusions. These other games like social media games, it's all about doing the same thing, creating delusion, creating a idea of you are special and you should keep creating this content. And people are on this. OnlyFans does the same thing. Only fans is catering to your worst elements there. Oh, these people love you.

40:06 These people are, you know, so it's like, not only do we have people, these systems competing for our attention as a limited resource, we have them manufacturing dilution to craft a gilded cage for each of us, and the fact of propaganda and marketing, the how potent every big company that sells a product has a massive marketing budget, right.

40:27 And propaganda, we know as is, is an omnipresent. Since, you know antiquity there's been propaganda, state propaganda. Well, there wouldn't be propaganda and there wouldn't be marketing if these things didn't work on human beings. Right. Like companies wouldn't spend all this capital on marketing if it didn't create an illusion of value and get a return on that investment.

40:47 And so the same thing with propaganda. If propaganda wasn't effective, nation states wouldn't do it, wouldn't use it. And so, you know, marketing and propaganda are just two derivatives of gaming people. You're gaming people. You're convincing them that, you know, more doctors smoke. Winstead. Yeah. You're convincing them that this is a, you know, your product is dealt right.

41:08 Your product is to gamify the the public sentiment, the public consciousness, to the point where they don't believe that it's dangerous for them. Yeah. Type thing. Right. So you're gaming their intellect or gaming their psychology or gaming their beliefs. Right. And and if humans are capable of doing this, I'm just saying when we're faced with with a superintelligence, I think that's a game changer.

41:28 Like, I think that could be extremely and I'm not trying to be scared anybody, but I'm just saying we should be aware of that, seeing what people already do with the tools and techniques they already have right now. Imagine when they have incredibly unprecedented, powerful tools at their disposal. And and so what I think is we need to change the sentiments on how we game each other and start being real with with each other because of the potency of the future could be so dangerous that we shouldn't go into this in gamify anymore.

41:57 I think we should stop playing games, you know, no pun intended. Because like key games in their proper domain keep domains in their in the exploratory humanity humanities like we learn lessons from games, we learn valuable skills from games we learn like we've talked about throughout the breadth of this conversation. Right? But then when it comes to major things for that shift, humanity, that's not to be game.

42:21 Well, why can't we don't play games with that? Why can't we build the games that help create the skills to combat AI and artificial general intelligence, and break ourselves out and fortify our minds? And just like this psychologist trained his daughters from four years old to be chess masters, we can train our kids from four years old to have critical thinking skills, to break out of these things, to have that objectivity and all these other things.

42:48 But go ahead. No, no, I totally what you're saying. I'm just thinking that. Precisely. That's what I was thinking in terms of like, you know, solutions, you know, for the future. It's kind of like already what we're doing. I mean, like being a medical entrepreneur, I'm, like, interpreting for doctors always, you know, asking health questions to patients. And part of those health questions have to do with technology, especially with children.

43:10 And then, you know, there are there's certain data that we use in this real world outside of the screens that help, that can help us kind of like keep ourselves others accountable and keep ourselves accountable in terms of like, how can we, you know, not be such so entrapped in like pull so much into the trap because I it's kind of like the abstinence.

43:33 I, you know, the abstinence of technology is not going to be the solution to all these dangers that we have for being honest isn't going to help. Right, right. So how do you use it and how do you how do you use the latter? You can use your own phone to set up an alarm using two hours on Facebook.

43:48 You know, like that's definitely enough, you know, but like if you be like 15 minutes on Facebook or throughout the day, you know, there are apps already that work to tell you, like you being like this amount of time in this app, and then that creates at least a level of consciousness. I don't think that's kind of like be a solution for everything, but also being comfortable with candlelight, checking with each other like we are at home.

44:11 And it's like, hey, you've been on the phone a while. Where are you going to like read a book or something. So try to be accountable, partner for each other and then being comfortable with it because and not feeling guilty. So guilty about it, but just understanding that it's just like we are being trapped into this. And then like you don't need to justify yourself for being on the phone.

44:30 Just just put it away. He's not you. He's the phone. He's he's like, he's the system. So don't feel bad about it. So you don't feel like, oh no, but I really like this. I don't just like checking it for a while and then you're stuck out there. Our, you know, like, if we're emotionally, we can feel comfortable about tackling this and the solutions for it.

44:47 I think we can we can save ourselves, you know, a little bit from not going to deep into the the danger. Persevere. Yeah. I think that if we have a solutions, I think some of the solutions could be an array of tools that allow us to have anchor points to create our own measurements of our game, whether or not we're winning a game by our own measure.

45:05 So like if I'm eating my health calls, if I'm meeting my life goals of me. Yes. Right. Like create these anchor points for myself and then have the game that I'm playing that I'm assuring is the first game that gets played right. And as long as those games are being played and I'm winning that game, then not worry too much.

45:21 Relax in the other areas. Yeah, you see what I'm saying. And that might be a way to gamify ourselves out of the whole situation. Attention. Potential stories. You start by teaching your kids to play the right game first. Make the right game the priority.