Duality of Symbiosis & Technology Ethics

0:00 All right, so I did I, I hit the button. That means go. It's a red light on the machine, but it's a green light for us. All right, so I told you, I warned you. I'll start with something heavy this morning. Well, I mean, we already started with, you know, doomed or the meek, the merciful and the, charitable and the charitable and the righteous.

0:27 Yeah. To get ourselves, get our minds going. This morning, we just listened to the song called The Doomed by a Perfect Circle. It's pretty good. Yeah, to get it, to try to, stimulate the, brain. Oh, dark. Oh, dark. First 30.

0:48 That came up with that phrasing. Yeah. All right, so this is the theme, the initial theme for today's conversation is symbiosis. So I had an epiphany the other day. I was I don't I don't even know, like, when when like what? What puts me in the same thought mode, but sometimes, like, I get in thought mode, you just become very pensive and dive in into the deep pull of your thoughts.

1:15 Yeah, it tends to be when I'm by myself. Oh yeah. With lack of stimulation, your brain turns inward. It kind of does. And, I don't think I ever really told you I actually meditate. Nice. I what, did I do it years ago and, I do it from time to time. I don't do it like, daily. Like I probably should.

1:35 What I, what I should really do is, like, every morning, start with some kind of stretching exercise. Hook. Because, I'm way too rigid. Like, I need to be more flexible. What's it makes it look like? The ability of about a two by four, but, some very famous people who've been very successful meditate daily, like, Seinfeld, weirdly enough, is a big advocate of transcendental meditation.

2:02 Okay. Yeah. And, I can put some adjective in front of mind, too, and make it sound awesome. Yeah. But I mean, it is a matter of it's, an approach in a school of thought toward it. It's a way to organize the activity. Yeah. So, yeah, there people have been doing it so long, I think there's some credence toward the different, you know, schools, as it were.

2:27 Yeah, yeah. Makes little sense. Funny, I never noticed this building before. It's like series a little apartment scanner. Kind of nice looking actually. Is really, Ooh. And I have to give props for not having multiple column like some of the. Any renovated places around here. Yeah. Richie, say, when I keep making fun of, like, if they have, we say if they have two sets of columns, they prestige.

2:53 Once there are some places who have like 3 or 4 sets of columns, it's like, oh, they prestige for drives. Nice. Every remodel they add another set of columns. Is it a Call of Duty reference? Yeah I love it. Yeah. That's excellent. Yeah. So symbiosis right? Is like so this is my epiphany is that I was like, okay, so how is humanity actually defined?

3:19 Like if you were to, kind of zoom out your alien species, right. And you come in and, you know, whatever from planet is all star with a, you know, some kind of advanced technological species. You kind of come down and you say, hey, how would we actually define this? This, this creature. Right. You go to trying to tell me initially a symbiotic relationship with the planet upon which it dwells, I don't know.

3:50 Yeah, right. So, like, you know, to to, to qualify, classify, kind of validate it, you know, to, I don't know, like, wait, like put it in its, put it in its category, you know. Yeah. And like you're make it for the Intergalactic Conference. You're making a classification. It does no good. You're making a classification, you know.

4:12 Yeah. And you describe the planet and its flora and fauna and all that kind of stuff. Right. And you say there's this series of intelligent, organic beings, you know, great apes. And, you know, you described the taxonomy like you would motherfucking whales. Yeah, dolphins. And. Right. Hey. Yeah. Right. Carbon based life form, you know, mostly this and that.

4:36 And then there's these other ones that dare to modify the, landscape and environment to great degree. It. Yeah. So regardless of of what species you were in, the whole universe, you know, you'd have some type of symbiosis with your, with with the universe to some extent. Some parts, you, your fragment of universe understand and appreciate your relationship to the other.

4:59 Right. And so humanity you would you could describe as, it's current state. Like I'm not talking about future past like where we're at right now. You know, if they came back kin down today, let's say, you know, they would, it's insane how they come down. But anyway, everything we come here, right? Yeah. But come down. I mean, it is.

5:20 It's all relative. It's relative to where we dwell. So it is down to us. Yeah. It would be like ascending or descending from heaven and. Yeah. And so, you know, bottom line of what I'm getting at is that I think that they do is it's okay. They have a, they have a dual symbiosis one, they have a, kind of a bifurcated symbiosis, this species that calls itself human.

5:43 Right. And one is they have, of course, have a biological symbiosis with the planet and their environment. Sure. Which gets into biology and all the inter interplay between species and. Yeah. Morning as much or as little as we understand it. Yeah. And so we know that like, our body uses bacteria for a lot of its functions.

6:03 Right. We just know that you, we don't know how to curate the, human by a human microbiome. But, hey, scientists have recently created an artificial one. Yeah, right. And so we could talk about that, but, you'd say, okay, well, first and foremost, they they have to breed this air that that is created from, you know, oxygen, which is created from these trees.

6:26 Yeah. You know, is this is this cool water? Yeah, I guess so. Let's see what this way. We kind of scarce known it. Yeah. This is like a ditch. A dark ditch. Yeah. That we're bound to in. Yeah. I don't want to know that to be. Oh, today. To be that day. A dark concrete ditch where I lose a tooth.

6:44 Yeah.

6:48 If you miss a friend to. They got broken arm. It's like mission accomplished for the day. Yeah. It's like, well, we really came down hard on that day. We we we learned that we weren't very symbiotic with that ditch. Yeah. We're not properly respected and developed a relationship with that Cossack. Right. So the air. Right. The air itself, you know, we we rely on this, oxygen rich atmosphere.

7:15 And oxygen is produced by other living things, you know, as far as we know. And the geology of the Earth, there was a point in time where oxygen was very limited. Well, yeah. And so, aerobic bacteria. Yeah. It was an anaerobic environment. Anaerobic bacteria did not run the day like they do now. Right. And so then photosynthesis evolved and then they say, you know, boom.

7:37 Got the oxygen rich atmosphere. That type thing right starts to display some of the nitrogen and carbon dioxide. And then from what I understand, two, there was a point in our geological history where the oxygen levels on Earth were much higher. The right. Yeah. So anyway, human beings have a symbiosis with the. Yeah, they were much higher because they had not.

8:01 I mean, hey, we had bugs the size of a car. Yeah. Right. So different, different species were able to thrive in different types of environments. Right. Because they have a different form of symbiosis with that environment. And so then that environment just produces evolutionary speaking certain species. Right. Yeah. There's a drive to evolution to, accommodate the environment.

8:25 Right. Those, those creatures that do better in any given environment will pass on their DNA. Right? So anyway, and we codify that principle, such as, you know, survival of the fittest and coupled with evolution. Yeah, yeah. And so in our, in our cells, from what I understand, mitochondria is like literally a form has its own form.

8:46 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. They, they think it's so we, we basically engulfed or absorbed another cell. And then it's the organelle from a that, you know, bacteria basically. Yeah. So. Right. Our cells found a way to have a symbiotic relationship, almost like, it's the powerhouse of our cell. Yeah. So we this is the ATP or whatever ADP.

9:10 And, I don't know, maybe that's a home security thing. And our. No, no, no, you're right. I'm just kidding. ATP is right. It's pretty amazing to drink. Phosphate is ATP. Yeah. From that biology class I remember I remember biology. So anyway our our our our bodies are these basically incubation. We incubate the kind of bacteria we want that's that essential to us at different things.

9:35 Digestion. Our skin has a flora. You know, part of protection is certain bacteria that we incubate through our sebaceous glands. That bacteria kills off bad bacteria, the cells in infections. Right. You know, etc.. And, you know, our sebaceous glands clogs. We get we get pebbles. So it's that Flora, gets off a little bit, you know, and then it trips different mechanisms inside of our body activates different bacteria, etc..

10:02 Right. So our bodies are like these symbiotic systems. We, Yeah, symbiotic systems that, no, we're trying to constantly achieve homeostasis, balance. Yeah. With, with this symbiotic environment, with homeostasis from the standpoint of our physiology. Yeah. But also that physiology is extended through the symbiotic relationship with the environment and bacteria and viruses, etc.. Right, right. And so then obviously our bodies are attenuated to the food that nature can provide as well.

10:34 Right. Yeah. We have this omnivore capability. Yeah. You know, we also have started engineering our own quote unquote food. Yeah. Which segways into the, into the other kind of bifurcated symbiosis that I the way I kind of vision here and that and that is Oh shit. What. Super dark, super dark. I have this little light on my phone, and I also have this little light, which will be.

10:59 And, the light of mine, little lettuce. All right, so the other, fork here is, technology. So we have a symbiosis with technology itself. And, I know it's giving agency. It's assigning some type of, you know, thing to technology beyond just the array of, capabilities and stuff and things. Right? Yeah. But when I'm doing that on purpose.

11:28 But we have to anthropomorphize it to a degree to really talk about it as an entity. And, as a self-feeding and growing thing. Right, because it's defining technology is defining for humanity. Right? Right. And so, you know, my, my, the vision I had before, years ago, I talked about man converting into a converging into a biomechanical species and then have to be a mechanical stick.

11:52 Right. So, yeah, biological cyborgs. Yeah. And what moment of of any given day does any given human not engage in some form of technology? I mean, like basically impossible. Yeah. And that's it if you include everything from shelter. But that's also I think that comes down to how we've talked about how the modern humans might be thoroughly bifurcated as well.

12:19 I mean, you know, as far as homo técnicas versus Homo sapiens. Exactly, exactly. That's like the subspecies ation through capability. Yep. Because the Homo técnicas is the one that is consistently, constantly interacting with technology to subsist. Right. Because we at the level we're at, most of us, we cannot survive. We cannot subsist, on a bare level without that interaction.

12:49 Exactly. That's exactly what I'm saying. And so we have this duality of symbiosis. And so this alien species that would come down and define us would be like, hey, look, this this species is symbiotic at this point in their history with their environment and and it's their technology. Yeah. Right. And that's basically defining. That's really how you define many.

13:09 Now internalizing that saying okay, so what should we do as human beings. How to how can we live optimally? I think well, it's increasing that symbiotic relationship not only just, yeah, recognizing it and giving lip service to it, but really diving into it and saying on the level of the fabled, Indians, of your understanding every facet of your environment, respecting it and, you know, curating it.

13:40 Exactly. The herring for it. Yeah. You basically took the words out of my mouth. I was going to use different words. That same idea. I was going to say Foster and Stewart. Yeah. Those two symbiotic systems. Right. I mean, even that damnable Bible we keep talking about tells us to be good stewards of our resources. Yeah. I mean, that's that's kind of vague, but, you know, well, it you know, it confers upon us responsibility for all the animals and Genesis by saying Adam named them, they're basically his.

14:14 Yeah. So inevitably technology, we're going to be altering our biology. You know, you can imagine, genetic engineering. You can imagine, you know, all these different things. Implantable devices, technology, you know, literally embedded while going for and whatnot. So technology continues to play a more and more prominent role. And so you can look at these things as like, almost like sliders, you know, like a gradient, you know, type of thing, like an equalizer.

14:40 Yeah. You know, solutely and inevitably will be altering our biology through technology to the point where we could perhaps diminish our symbiotic reliance on the biological world. And I think that is a folly. Yeah, probably. It's probably, probably not a good idea, especially at this level of technological capability, because we are still absolutely dependent on our environment and we don't yet understand our environment enough to just wholesale ignore it and leave it.

15:07 Yeah, I can definitely imagine a sci fi future where like if we, you know, we're to see the Earth from space, it would be a technologically developed, you know, clearly, you know, some kind of area that's been thoroughly terraformed and customized. Yeah, right. Like the whole entire Earth is a city. You know, I can totally imagine that, you know, especially if we have these different energy technologies that come online, like fusion or whatever, right?

15:31 You know, with this. And that gives us, in essence, limitless power compared to what we have now. Yeah. And then we can just start doing vertical farms and, you know, kind of start prying ourselves away from nature, you know? Right. But by being completely in charge of it. Yeah. Like and you know what? I still lament that. Should we be caught?

15:54 Should we do that as much to the same level? I mean, I feel like we should follow both paths at the same time. Definitely at this point in our development, we should be our joint stewards of both symbiotic systems because if pinned on both into a newer one to the exclusion of the other is just shortsighted and we're putting our blinders on.

16:20 Right. And so what we have is we have an actual not only not only do we have like, through this philosophy, we have a means by which we can, improve our lives for sure. But through this kind of lens, by, oh, we have a means by which we can understand, introspect and improve our environment as well that we depend on.

16:42 Exactly. And so what I was thinking is that we can actually create, once and for all, a tangible moral code, a functioning moral code by which we can live based on how well we steward those, those two domains. Those two seem to be some of the act relationships there. So rather than saying, you know, oh, Heavenly Father, tell us what how to how to behave.

17:04 Right. We actually have a pathway now to show to a moral code to to a code of ethics. We're not confined to the meek morality of Christianity, right? Right. We define a moral code and set of actions that come with it that are more proactive rather than reactive, because that's Christianity is reactive, right? Christianity is something you make you okay with your lot.

17:34 Yeah. So you were given. Yeah. So so as a concrete example. Right. We could say, oh, you know, we could administer antibiotics, you know, to everybody and mass and flood our bodies with antibiotics constantly to constantly kill off bacteria. Right. And the question is, is that is that what we're calling up with a set of probiotics that foster the correct microbiome?

18:00 No, it's exactly talking about and give it to and issue antibiotics unless they are absolutely needed, which they are. They are a tool that we can use. Right situation. Right. When certain bacteria go go amok in our bodies, we can make medicines that then counteract that. Yeah, I just had an ear infection and was on a course in bionics for five days.

18:20 And this fucking bubble in my ear, you know, and not a straight right. So so that's applying technology to biology and appropriately to better our lives. Yeah. And that's the proper use. But some people just take in about us therapeutically. They feel a little bit of a tinge of something coming on. Boom. They get it enough. The doctor put me on a recurring subscription or prescription of antibiotics, or swelling in my lower eyelid to my bone.

18:51 Liam, a gland, I think. All righty. That learn a new word every day. Yeah. I never knew there was such a gland. And apparently this particular set of antibiotics really helps with inflammation. Nice. Well, so we can we can start to develop a moral guidebook or a moral framework by how well we steward these two different, symbiotic systems.

19:19 Right. Yeah. And so that was an example in the biological, realm. Right. Another, another one in the biological realm is let's that shit on our environment because we depend on the environment for our islands. Right? Said the third maxim, don't shit where you live. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And in in that that vein of thought, we can unveil a whole new, kind of like, philosophy of environmentalism, right?

19:45 You know, we could say clean air. Clean water is vital to us. Rather than just having a picture of an Indian cry and say, pick up your trash, we come up with, you know, a ethos and plan of action for environmental ism that isn't passive, but that is rather active and ingrained in our activities. That's right. So we instead of trying to interpret what some invisible man in the sky wants, we can start to think more humanistic, more organically about what's, you know, what works for human beings, for the health and welfare of humanity through the mechanism stewards of these two symbiotic systems.

20:22 All right. So I can come up with all kinds of so basically, every human being should be an environmentalist, because to be an environmentalist since is a symbiotic relationship, isn't this to be a humanist? Right? Right. So care about the environment is to care about yourself. Yeah. It's like you care about the environment because there's luxury of being selfish.

20:42 Yeah. The the environment as it is, is an extension of humanity. Absolutely. Whether we like honey or whether we like it or not, I'm gonna. So that's the that's like a moral, basic moral framework in that domain. They pulled over and technologically, the domain. And that's where I've been ranting about are you I and he thinks he said, because I got a so hidden right there.

21:11 Human's eyes are attenuated to movement. If I said perfectly still. Yeah. That's it. It's that they can't see me that their vision is motion based. I think they only see in black and white. Do.

21:25 They're more rods. No cones. Let me just repeat that. Terms are rods. No cones. Rods, no Co. Good thing in order to make carrots as we do. Yeah. I have acute vision due to my vitamin overdose and an eyeball on either side of my fucking head so I could see 360 degree. Yeah, yeah. It's like, what's that?

21:51 Fish is the same way. Flounder, I think so. Well, it's got two eyes on one side and. Yeah, slapped around the bottom can see everything, right? Except for something lurking in the sand, of course. Right. Yeah. But I guess it's evolved to say, hey, let's. Predators are in the sand and more are broke. Yolk for yolk. And the other fish that are getting eaten but eaten by everything else and they're at the bottom, they're like, yeah, who's the bottom feeder now, mother.

22:16 Yeah. So technology I you know, for years now I've heard this thing of philosophy called technology philanthropy. And the idea is to steward the additional technology for the betterment of all human beings, you know, and having a simple moral framework by which you can operate by looking at how technologies apply, applied. Yeah. So basically what I'm saying is that but not okay, I'm also going to say I think not just application immediate application, but ramifications of application.

22:47 Oh absolutely. And that's the piece we're missing right now. Absolutely. And creativity and thoughtfulness towards, you know, unintended consequences. There we go. That's the that's the piece you're adding that we haven't given a full treatment of. In my personal. Yeah, opinion. So, you know, the idea of thinking about these things as a primary function of government, as a primary function of humanities, as a primary function of because it is governance of that which will which we have and depend on.

23:16 Yes, yes, it's a, it's a, it's a full dependance. And also what separates us from all the other species on the planet is every species on the planet has this symbiotic symbiosis with nature. But we've created a symbiosis with technology as well. And that's what makes humans. And because of that, we created a feedback loop where we modify that environment, it modifies us, we modify technology, it modifies us.

23:41 Exactly. So both of those symbiotic relationships are caused by a feedback loop. That's right. Which we haven't really I guess it. Yes. No, you're right. And that the biological feedback loop is, is how we're altering the environment aka climate change for example. Yes. Right. Which is hopefully and then attending the consequence of industrialization but could be intended. Yeah.

24:03 If we could, if we can get to the point where we can tip that, scale a little bit and, you know, think more along these lines of stewardship, like I said. And then obviously, if we can act in a way that creates the climate change, we could act in a way that Schwarzer. Right. Or you know, undoes it.

24:20 Yes. So, which which then leads into and so that is the foundation, not just accidentally reducing it to some degree by having a pandemic, right or right. Yeah. Like I said, be conscious stewards of the environment and not my. And the solution to that, the way it looks right now, our kind of best hope, if you will, is some type of technology that we discover.

24:42 Yeah. And as you as you put it, heavy emphasis on the discover. We don't have it yet. Yeah. Right now we're on the unless unless technology, emerges pretty soon. We're, playing chicken with our destiny. I guess you could say. Oh, yeah, and we're going to lose. And, Yeah, the irony is, it's like we see it coming, which is.

25:03 Which is really good. Yeah. You see the damn 18 weather barreling down on your little tuck? Tuck, right? Yeah. Because, I mean, it's kind of what it is. Yeah. And, you know, it's like we kind of do standing at the precipice of this, of the of the classic, utilitarianism trolley problem right now. Right. We could change directions and not kill everybody.

25:28 Yeah. You know, so, like, one track is the current track, which is, you know, can we consume the world to our own doom, right? For money and for gluttony? Yeah. Money. Gluttony. Power. You know, whatever. Whatever things people amass. Yeah. So. So you can imagine, then a political change, lining up with, starting to line up with, this, this reality, right?

25:57 This, this reality of the, of the symbiosis. And so I imagine, like, what's to say in the United States? Imagine, I think we've done this a bunch of times saying like, if you're king for the day. Yeah. So you can imagine, like the wholesale ability to alter your political structure and the social structure, let's say. Okay, so what might we do to start steward the environment better, right.

26:19 Yeah. Well, for United States, having a consumer based economy is kilometers, three kilometers. And there is one plastic bottle garbage patch at a time. Yeah. It's it's conspicuous consumption. Use the term it's you know, we are just on a hamster wheel of more and more and more from everything from I have to have my five Gatorade a day to.

26:44 Yeah. You know, needing that face cream so that you look fucking pretty. It 72. Yeah. In every aspect of biology and technology gets reduced to a consumer commodity. Well, you know, and that's, that's a, that's a recipe for disaster. You know, water trading is a commodity. Now. Oh there you go. Rest my kids better. So this this kind of this this, societal slash governmental, political, socio economic structure, you know, basically everything our consumerism and growth is a fucking, you know, burning your candle from both ends for the planet.

27:19 Right. And is very antagonistic to the stewardship idea that I'm talking about. That's biological stewardship. And and in total and complete opposition. If anything, it wants to crush it actively. Yeah. That the business model is to crush it to to have dominion over it and, and squeeze as rapidly as possible every resource out of it. Right. Which is the ideas.

27:42 Hey, there's always been more. We'll find more. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll find more in the find creative ways to find more. Yeah. Which is more, you know, which is, asinine. Yeah. Like like like, let's just burn through all the resources because we can. Yeah. It's like, hey, the universe is plentiful. Will you define more here? We'll go get it somewhere else.

28:07 Yeah. I remember I told you about the guy that I rented the, office space from. And you always put out, like. Like, like one tenth sized rolls of paper towels. Oh, wow. So sorry about that. I don't remember, so, you know, to to dry our hands is like, so it's like a shared workspace kind of thing. He provided something.

28:28 Yeah. Like paper towels and toilet paper. Yeah. Soap and paper towels and toilet paper. Right. In the. In the bathrooms. Yeah. And there was never a full roll of, of, of, paper towels. They just split up on a roll. I mean, how did he do it, I wonder, save an empty core and spool on it.

28:49 I don't I don't really know exactly how he did. He might have spilled it. Very well. May have looked. And I asked him one day why there's never for all towels out there. Like, what the hell? Yeah, there was no drains. I just noticed a and he said, well, if I put a full roll out there, people will take six towels to wipe their hands.

29:08 But if I put a roll that's like close to ending, people will just take one towel and use them sparingly. And that was just his own thing. That was like his thing, right? Yeah. I don't know if he's right. He's totally right. Okay? He's totally right. When something is in is in a is in massive abundance visually that we see something plentiful, I can say we tend to consume more through.

29:29 And I can also say, as a corollary to that, but you know, when and when an area is cleaner and well-maintained to a certain level, people will generally expect that level and mess it up less. Yeah, right. And so it's a it's a play. Our nature when we're, when we're we dress around that love. Yeah. When we're surrounded by bounty, Bountiful harvest, if you will.

29:55 We have a tendency to overindulge. Right. Because. Yeah. Yeah. And so this this is the problem in a consumer based economy is that you walk into any store and there's 20 of something. Yes. And so that's the Walmart phenomenon. You go in there for a hammer and you leave with a hammer. Three things from three things from the grocery section, three things in the beauty section, two from the home that you never, you know, intended to buy.

30:20 And yeah, okay. Walmart in general has cheaper prices, but it has so many things that when you're walking through the store, you say, oh yeah, I can pick one of those up. I can pick one of these, I think, well, I'm here just the price point. Absolutely. So that it's more of an impulse buy. Right. So the whole place becomes an impulse buy.

30:39 You go in there for a hammer, you leave with $150 worth of shit that you like. You have ten impulse buys at 808, right? Yeah. Your resolve there. See something on the end cap? Oh, that's a good deal. I might as well get one of those now. And you don't need it. And you had no intention of buying it.

30:55 And so, you just naturally play the game because. Because in the store is everything on display in Bountiful Harvest, right? So the impulse is to over consume. And I think the other idea, though, that dovetails into what we're saying, that okay, makes things less Bountiful and seemingly less plentiful so that people can't have that argument fall back on, even if they don't say it out loud in their own minds, they're like, there's plenty.

31:22 Yeah, make things. Make things less like that and less this displays less like that. Stores less like that don't have the Walmart Supercenter, have the neighborhood market model. Yeah. Where people, naturally consume in the neighborhood market model because of their awareness of these three factors. Yeah, I think that's what the smaller, you know, instead of 35 of one item, we have five.

31:53 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, there's, there's other ways to like let's say you also the tax code where you stop taxing labor and you stop taxing, corporations that are creating the means for production, you know, and for employment. You stop taxing those, those systems directly and you start taxing consumption. So you start to say, okay, I mean, I say, fuck them there.

32:19 Are we tax labor too? Because no, no, no, no, we tax labor because those fuck faces are like, they're shifting labor to robotics. So of course we have to make them pay for that. Well, I'm not talking about that kind of labor. I'm talking about traditional, you know, your paycheck. Oh, yeah. Human human paycheck. I mean, yeah, yeah, you could tax robotics for sure, but I'm saying, you know, I say there needs to be the automation tax.

32:46 But yeah, if you want to get rid of my labor taxes on me, talk. Yeah. Corporation tax them to hell. Yeah. So if you're tax yeah okay. Well if the tax code was equitable on the consumption side right. So like the bottle of booze that is just fucking terrible for you. Like, you know alcohol is the worst drug by far.

33:06 You know. So it's still ABC stores, all this liquor store spirits or whatever I call it still exists. But the bottle is now $40 and says 20, right. You're going to buy less of it? Yeah. Everything. Soda, chips. And that experiment happened in New York, right? Soda, chips, those kind of things got taxed. It was like the convenience store tax model.

33:27 Yeah. And so now all of a sudden, the banana that's that's up there at the register and the bag of chips and chips is $8. Yeah. But the banana is $0.35 because subsidized. Right. You see. But then also I feel like besides these ideas, we also have to look at the other side of the coin that I mentioned, the psychology of you're maintaining things that they're already decent.

33:50 Yes. So we have to bring things up to a decent level as well. We have to make everything so that it looks on, but we have to figure out what that level of psychology is, that this area needs to look a certain level of nice so that people don't throw their trash on it. Yeah, for sure. Because because the environment and how it's presented has psychological effect, big time on people.

34:11 It's determinism like we discussed much time. Yeah. And it's real and it's undeniable. And we have to make us do things like instead of, this can just be an ugly ass shit. Maybe we inject some beauty and symbiosis into the environment where it looks like it belongs, it looks like, and it also draws your eye and your attention so that maybe you throw things in it, I don't know.

34:38 Yeah. I mean, get it to the point where people are taking photos next to trash cans, but just some people. Yeah, like like beautifying the environment is is cool. It's good for the soul. It's Instagrammable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you need less Instagram if everywhere around you as an Instagram. Yeah. And I think that's the idea right. We want everything we want to share that consumer economy.

35:02 We want to shift the tax model to something that does more encourage less consumption and more money and depletes the leaves pockets ourselves. Right? Yeah, it's definitely a good, good, candidate for augmented reality to so like, with the right kind of augmented reality, a fucking ghetto could turn into a Paradise. Yeah. So, like, you're looking through your augmented lenses and every piece of trash is automatically edited out, and every wall has beautiful artwork on it.

35:35 But why? Why? That's trash. We want them to take the trash and get rid of it. We want them to put the trash into the. Yeah. So so you earn you earn digital currency by hiking it. I mean, you're in digital currency, but you are digital currency. By improving the eyesores that are spotlighted by the augmented reality. There you go.

35:53 It's got a glow around it. And if you pick it up, put it in the trash. You get a coin. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, maybe maybe we augment other things like okay, incentivize other activities. Okay. Picking up trash. Right. But what about we use this massive I were developing to try to hone in on relationships to grow, which becomes part of that stewardship because the part of the biological human self is our proper social interactions.

36:21 Right. And what if we facilitate that with technology? Once technology doesn't suck and it can actually do things like take my order at Burger King, what you could not do the other day, they had dialed into some sort of third party service, and we're short staffed and taking my order at the, window. And this thing was like, so would you, like, go, hey, blah, blah, blah.

36:47 Today? And I was like, no, that's, you know, that's a perfect that's a perfect thing. And it's still added to blah, blah, blah to my order. That's something that needs to be fully automated, right? Like the fast food joint in this window where there is no interaction whatsoever. We don't have good speech to text or voice to text.

37:07 We just don't have her. Well, it's just economically not cost effective as labor as human labor is still. Well, it's also doesn't handle all the edge cases that human beings can handle. Sure. Until it can fuck it, I don't want to use it. While I'm willing to give up some of the edge cases for consistency, better service, and no spit or hair in my fucking food, I mean, I don't know.

37:33 Then you get then instead you'll get unrecognized, lubricate and, the AI goes rogue and gets as disgruntled as job starts, starts moving, you know, looming in your burger. Nobody's there. And the the not the AI, but the mechanical process itself isn't being monitored. So what if it goes awry and does leak? Or what if it's, oh, you'd have a self-monitoring effect, right?

38:02 That'd be part of the oh yeah, the future of all of our systems that we built. So monitoring only works to some degree because we never figure out how to monitor everything. True. Every time there's some eventualities. It's not covered. Yeah, dude, there's a lot of people that have touched my food in my lifetime that I was not comfortable with.

38:22 So true. And I feel like, So maybe you'd still eat it from the. I do maybe. Yeah. And then maybe I would start to like the taste of whatever lubricant it was. Turpentine. And, so it's that standard lube, just like a lubricant that's used like machine lubricant. I forgot what it's called. Doesn't matter. Some kind of grease on it.

38:45 Oh, yeah. So silicone grease or. Yeah, I'd have to look it up. It's been so long. It's like a mineral spirit type thing, I don't know. Okay. That's big in a lot of industrial processes. Neat. Yeah. So, you know, inevitably the data will show that the AI contaminates the food far, far less frequency from farm to table, right.

39:09 Whoever level of accuracy goes up so much that. Well, let's be clear. Really, I'm not just ranting. We're not there yet. Yeah, just like the driving. You know, is that there'll be accidents. But then you compare it to, well, we're still not even there yet to where we can say it's better because there's all sorts of weird situations where, I don't know, I think I hit the person.

39:32 Yeah, but there's situations where humans that people. Yeah. And I think they are already does it a lot less frequency. But for the AI our standards are so high we extract zero, humans hit. I think that's what I want, what it takes. Everything needs to be fucking flawless. Well, there's no reason for me to let it take over.

39:50 What if it, let's say, thousand times better than humans? Unless it's. I need what magnitude of better than humans? I need continuous improvement towards perfection. Because mechanization can create perfection. So, you know, there has to be some type of threshold because, you know, there's there's there's environmental circumstances that are impossible to mitigate every variable. I mean, sure, you fault what what a tree limb falls.

40:16 I mean, come on. What I'm trying to say though, is we don't stop where we're at and say it's good enough. Yeah, sure. Okay. Continuous improvement, I agree. But there's like, acts of God that are not going, you know, lightning strikes or hits. Yeah. I don't expect those things to be covered. But I expect the bog standard everyday thing that a human being can avoid.

40:38 It should be able to avoid 100%. So you just get into a really, really, really good, not necessarily perfection, because perfection in an imperfect superstructure. I guess what I'm saying it's possible perfection in relation to the human being, anything the human being could avoid in a high frequency, we need to avoid 100%. Okay, sure enough, you know, I don't know what level will be acceptable from a legislative perspective.

41:06 I think it'll be far less. I think they're probably going to look at a 50 or 60% model. Well, the way it is right now, you know, we accept a certain amount of death on the roadways. Who do based on human error. But generally, I mean, that's that's the whole point of mechanization, right? No, we shouldn't, but it's become culturally we've become culturally attenuated.

41:27 We had a certain amount of death and discomfort, but we can rescue ourselves from that with our technology and holy, our technology to a higher standard by saying we need the engineering dollars, needs the basic research we need. Yeah, so long as that, so long as the standard isn't so high that it can't ever be obtained. Well, there's therefore it's the wording, the capability.

41:47 I think I think our legislative expectation has to grow with our capability. But I think it also needs to be a a driver to push the edge, because a driver, a good one, you know what I'm saying though? Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying. It's like and I agree, like mostly I don't know what the I don't know exactly what the threshold would be.

42:09 I'm not sure it was appropriate. I mean, I want to take I want us to take as the gold standard the best human being and simply snap your fingers tomorrow. All cars are equipped with AI. No humans drive any car. They're all driven by. I. And there's a 5% improvement in in motor vehicle accidents and death. Do we start?

42:32 Do we accept that? Start? Well, I think blanket society would say no because we have a we have a bias towards our own capability. 5%. Yes. We do have a bias toward okay. Well it's a 5% is achievable by anyone. You know, say there's 100,000 accidents per quarter, right? You're all full AI driven cars and there's 10,000 accidents per quarter.

42:57 Well that's orders magnitude. That's orders of magnitude better. But I think people would still say, oh no, look at all these examples of the AI fucking up. Well sorry you're going to do that because you're feeling displaced. It's right there. So there's the bias I'm talking about. It's not just the performance measure is a feeling of control. Well yeah.

43:14 And that's what I'm trying to say. Before I would comfortably cede control. Yeah I would want a high level of a super high magnitude of success, a super high magnitude of success. Because what's the point of me ceding control of it's nearly as mediocre as I am. Yeah, right. Well, if it if it shows some qualified measure ability better, and if we stop at that qualified measure better.

43:39 What. Yeah. Right. With with a goal function of can you bring it to zero. Right. So and initially what's going to happen is that you're going to have this AI self-driving cars perform way, way, way better than humans. Yes. And that's great for sure. But then you're still going to have other humans on the road, so they're inevitably going to have to legislate no human drivers.

44:04 Well yeah. And but that's, that's at least a generation away if we're working probably more. Well I don't know dude. You can never should predict technology. Well I'm not sure it's right because I guess what I'm predicting is all the I feel like the red tape, the over promise of, corporations and, you know, generally the level of success they've had so far.

44:33 I'm saying you got another 20 years. Yeah. Well, yeah. Well, you said generation before, but. Yeah, well, isn't that about the side and that what, what we're basically talking about every 20, 45 years, there's a yeah, there's a new generation. We fall out. Yeah. Most technological predictions either fall way short or.

44:57 Yep. We're back in school bus land now. Yeah. So, most technological predictions are way off because they're either dramatically under overestimated or 100%. And I'm sure this was dramatically over estimated. But they I'm a curious combination of technologists and what I and, I do not believe in the overall saving power and gospel of AI in its current incarnation.

45:28 Right. And that's there's a there's a gospel like affinity towards technology, but again, stems from this, reality that we're in, the symbiosis, even though it's unspoken, it's still felt. Yeah. So love affects everything we do. People. Yeah, people feel the effects, but they don't really have much of a way to to, verbalize, discussed or qualified in a way that we can speak about it.

45:56 As a society. We need nomenclature. We need, all right. Just trying to think of the country that released a free AI course to all of its citizens and then opened it up to the world to in like eight different languages. Nice. That'd be awesome. Like, on our system. No, it was one of the Scandinavian countries that's super enlightened.

46:19 And we should all be like, similar Sweden. Norway. I mean, it's like a little environment. Audrey. Yep. But I can, they open it up in English and, I took it cool, man. As it's good. Like, it would be a good general education course for anyone on AI. And that's the level we need, you know, link, then our true content.

46:45 Okay, I'll find it again. But it took a couple of weeks for me to take it. That's cool. It was actually heavy on content. Very cool. Yeah, man. It's like, you know, that's that's really like a missing component. We don't have the language. Really. What we do our kind of our kind of like normal consumer sees the like kind of our normal consumer, attitude, if you will, towards technology is just to watch what comes out right.

47:17 Like monitoring the tech news, like what an app will come out with is a feature set for the iPhone 27. Right. And so we kind of sit watching, kind of just what we're we're waiting for the tablets brought to us by the priesthood. There you go. That's great. Way to say it. Love it. Yeah. And so we should acknowledge that that's, you know, a flaw in our consumptive model on a more participatory model, right, where we're just expanded language and how to discuss technology better and also how to create it.

47:48 Where and you're it. How are you doing? You know. Yeah. And if we have this new language, like, you know, the proverbial, Eskimos with 25 different words for snow or whatever. Yeah, right. We start to have, more language surrounding the biological and technological symbiosis. We can start to better steward it just through our change in language.

48:12 Right. Because we got these. I keep saying this kind of thing in our podcast, but in essence, we'd have bigger concepts. We'd have bigger Legos to build with. Yes. And so we have to encapsulate these concepts, give them catchy words or phrases, or find a way to grow those organically so that people can discuss so that it penetrates the collective social consciousness.

48:38 Absolutely. Because language, as we talked about, in the past as well, has a big impact on that. So if we had a much greater vernacular of technical, technological and biological speech in our daily language, right? So like, America has all this gun language. Yes, you know, built into it. Oh, you know, I'm riding shotgun, right? You know, I can go on, on I did I did this on Facebook.

49:01 I, started started one and everyone dog piled it, for fun. And it's like, dude, there's got to be at least a few hundred common phrases. Yeah, you know, like that. I'll shoot you an email, right? Yeah, right. There's all these, like, you know, there's no silver bullets at this problem. Yeah. I mean, oh my gosh, it goes on and on.

49:22 And it really does like you know, it's it's heavily integrated into corporate speak like you know. Oh I guess we're kind of off target right. You know. Oh he's shooting from the hip I just don't I'm not a noun. Right. Yeah. And so technological and biological phrases, phraseology and language inserted into our more inserted into our vernacular would be incredibly useful.

49:47 It would I also think, you know, as conversations towards active actors participation, not the passive consumption of technology, but like every one of us, has the potential to create, modify and customize our technology for us. We don't have to wait for the priesthood to hand things down, and we need what we do have. We do have a default.

50:12 We do have a default that we are locked into as individuals, like free. You know, you kind of have to take a certain degree of defaults. Do you, do you do you have to take a platform that you may build on? Yeah. It's hard to just kind of, I'm. Yeah. No. Automatically, you know, create your own. I'm not saying everybody got like, their own solar smartphone.

50:33 Yeah. Or just your own exposure to tech. That's unique because you'd be so asymmetric. Nobody you'd have very little interaction because you again come back to you have to have a common nomenclature. You have to have a common way of speaking and referencing these things because you have to work together. You're in a you're in a relationship with all these other people that are in the same ecosystem you are or in the same work life you are.

50:56 You got to interact and build with them. If you're going to build anything, you have to build with others. Exactly. Yeah. And so it'd be interesting to start creating some of that language. You know, who knows, like how do you become a pioneer in the, steering the narrative? I guess you'd have to have a platform to where people are listening.

51:16 Right? Podcasts or something? Yeah. I mean, where would one get that? Yeah. So yeah, you got to grow it in the, in the way that, that, under the consumptive model. Right. So you got to slip it in because. Right. Because right now the consumptive model is the is the overarching model. So in order to make this kind of progressive change, you kind of have to, work within that structure.

51:38 Right? You got to use the system change system. Yeah. Without getting without getting, something. Yeah, yeah. Subsumed. Indoctrinated. Happy. You want to say it? Yeah. Indoctrination. That's, such a such a word. And it. Yeah, man. I mean, from cradle to grave, right? We're indoctrinated into consumerism. Then it becomes part of part of our nature, which, you know, is, is a symbiosis that we don't want.

52:03 Well, you don't want human beings locked in to, a life reality, symbiotic relationship with consumerism is that it talks. Hey, that's another that's a third leg, a symbiotic relationship pair. That's a symbiotic relationship with, our economic and corporate situation. Yeah. You can look at right now. You can look at the current superstructure as a series of, I call them industrial complexes, but you can call them symbiotic relationships as well, because, I mean, I think, I think symbiotic relationship, allows for more participation and acknowledges that we do modify it on some level.

52:45 Right? Yeah. An industrial complex is a is a is an entangled form of symbiosis. For sure. It it's just institutional. Yes. And it implies more of a top down model. Whereas at least if we say it's a symbiotic relationship, we imply that we might have be able to create an agent of change that changes it from the bottom up.

53:09 Yeah. I really like the idea of naturally becoming a, an environmentalist based on an awareness of the human condition, but at the same time it's like it has to be guided by, by by pure, by purity in terms of knowledge and truth. True. You know, because right now that domain is heavily polluted by the different yes powers that be that term post-truth reality.

53:38 Reality, post-truth reality is real. It's that says let's let that be tomorrow's conversation. Is this post-truth reality. Because now, and we'll start the conversation with truth Social. Oh, shit. I got research it. So because I don't know much about what it's just Trump's Twitter clone. I know it's further clone, but I want to find out some of the things that have been said and some of the popular ideas.

54:05 Well, the name the name says it all. Oh yeah. It's the he's the very arbiter of truth.

54:14 So, it yeah, we'll talk about that tomorrow. That's a great topic. Start. We'll start with Truth Social. And, and, another cool tune. You're going to introduce me. You said you had a song that you had in mind, too. So, you can introduce me to some song that you had. I don't know if it was earlier.

54:34 Cool. Well, that's it for today. Oh.