Our AI Future is Here

0:00 So we're talking about basically like coming up with ideas. And then six months later someone else comes up with the idea and you're like, no, yeah, this that opportunity should be, It's weird. Some people have like, like an I told you so kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're it's it's clout related. And I can't say that it's completely removed from clout for me, but what?

0:24 But it is much more of a, like a lot of the topics I talk about are serious. Yeah. So when I, you see them play out in some way, it's not a haha put points on. It's like I ain't been O'Brien but I hate that, you know. Right. It's totally not a no I have told you so it's a it's a constant like God work or not, get a big enough megaphone you know.

0:48 Yeah. But I still know I know there's so much more that I need to be doing as a contributor or whatever. I know I try to stay away from using the word creator because I think it's I mean, I think it's thrown around way too loosely, but I also just think nothing that I'm doing is actually creating anything.

1:09 So, yeah, so, so like I have this thing where I try to balance the amount of, production with consumption, if you will. So I try to like, create or produces as much or more than I consume, if that makes sense. I just try to be as a, as a really simple way to gauge productivity, try to be a social net positive.

1:30 Yeah, right. Like don't just don't just, consume produce, you know, some of that. But, you know, there's a there's a really interesting thing I see coming and I think that's going to be human beings being crowded out by the production of artificial intelligence. So I think, like really soon content creation is going to be mostly into the domain of AI, right?

1:53 Right. So when that happens, that's going to be a really interesting thing because human creators or producers, very well might lose most of their voice because they get crowded out by compelling, really sophisticated, elaborate and interesting AIS. Right. Well, I also I mean, I think so, I think, general, that AI has a demoralizing effect because it's inherently more efficient.

2:24 And so in, in some things. So for instance, like this is abstract. It's funny that you said that because I've, it might have been yesterday. It might have been the day before. I said something about, so I saw somebody pop up on Twitter with a video of Joe Biden announcing, a military excursion to the United States.

2:50 Oh, it's like a deepfake. Deepfake? Yeah. You know, and and they went into it in the video and said, you know, this is you could call this a preview. And it's like, that's that's fake, right? And what is something that I've been thinking about is I think at a, at some point very soon, suddenly, regardless of like good information, I think there's just going to be too much out there and some of it's going to be very fake and very believable to the point that we can't even deal with it.

3:19 Yeah, but even outside of the fake stuff. Yeah. Like I think it's going to get to where if something trends, I will mind that topic. Sure. And produce every thought that you could possibly any of us could ever come. Yeah. And be the first to market if you will, with everything. And it's like it's just like, you know, it's a.

3:41 Yeah. And it's tireless putting out content 24 seven. And if only 1% of it or less than a percent of it hits, it's still bigger than any person would ever say, right? So it's just like crowd out the human intelligence, right? You know, it's it's an interesting phenomenon. And then with the deepfakes, there's there's another interesting wrinkle to that is that people can start claiming that something they really said, they didn't say, say, oh, this is a deepfake.

4:07 So it can go both ways. You know that as well. But there's basically a talk through another, soon. I know this know this lady who's been a family friend for a long time and, she had a family tragedy recently. And so she's going through some stuff. So it's been some time to remove her. We met her for lunch today, and, she was talking about a lot of this conspiracy theory style thing.

4:32 You know, it's it's, like, not uncommon. Somebody goes through some kind of big life event and they're searching for something, you know, and, very easily then can fall into, misinformation traps, you know, and they're all over the place. So I was explaining that to her. Trying to explain to her is like, it's a seek and ye shall find reality right now, right?

4:57 It's like, if you want to leave, the earth is flat. The moon is made of cheese and reptiles from the government. Then you can find that there is. Yeah. There's enough people out there putting out enough of it that if you land there, you can you can be surrounded by confirmation of whatever whatever you whatever you thinking about, you know.

5:18 Yeah. So it's the ultimate echo chamber confirmation loop, right. So any narrative that you want to it's like a seeking you shall find world is what I was calling it. You know, like any kind of narrative that you could imagine is already out there. And so then, you know, the even more so moving forward, you know, that's like at a higher and higher rate moving forward, sir.

5:39 Absolutely. It's like I can imagine a future where the AI can create in real time any narrative that you want to that you're looking for, like and very quickly hone in, you know, algorithmically what what it is that you're looking for, what you want to hear basically. Well, and I totally agree with you. And it'll be able to do that faster.

5:56 Then we can report on it. It'll be it'll be able to do it faster than anybody else can deal with it. The big kicker for me is when not only is it selecting what's available, but it is nudging you so that you're no longer even telling it was really. There you go. So it's pointing you in the direction of relevance, right?

6:17 And supplying you with an information that can tell. Right. Yeah. So, so right now like in the business model for the competing social media empires. Right. Yeah. This is mindshare and basically like your attention, your time. Yeah. So and the value is in, you know, how long you keep someone on your platform, how many ads you can get in to see you directly translates in revenue.

6:40 So, you know, it's kind of by default misguided because the intention isn't to improve someone's life, improve their social status, their standing in the world, help them understand the world better or anything like that. That's not the motive. It's how long can I keep someone's attention, right? Well, and not at this point. It's not even about, you know, if I got you here through an affiliate link or something and I or I got you on my page, and I want you to click an ad eventually find my page valuable enough.

7:09 We're at a point now where I don't even actually like best case scenario, yes, I get you to buy something or coding on something. But even if you choose to just not engage with any of the extra stuff I'm doing and you just leave, there's so much metric stuff. Working on a website now for sure that they're still mining enough insight about how you behave while you're on their page, that they can still sell that like it's still value.

7:37 Although, like, even if even if, in total, your visit to their website was a failure as far as sales, like direct sales. Yeah, there's still so much stuff being mined there that they can still make a penny off of you. Whether you like, they can feed you complete bone and you're on their site in five seconds and they still got some money to make.

7:56 Right. But you really so, so imagine how captivating a hyper intelligent AI that knows a lot about you. It's not everything about you, more than you know about you. So personalized to the personal. Are you very close to the medium? You'll never want to end the conversation. You want to, you know, talk to the thing forever, if you will.

8:11 Right? Well, yeah. I mean, you think about it, and we can, I like to think of it as threat shooting or, like, power pointing, but, you know, like, if you think about trying to put, you know, metaphysics into a bullet point list, the way that bureaucracies in corporate situations, do, you know, they try to follow it down to he found that these are the essential things.

8:35 Right? But these were the thing that if you a family, you're a sociologist like that's I'm sure you know, their general attitude towards the world and whether or not they capitalize the G and God when they put the word out of their. Yeah. And I would say air fallacy. Sorry, sorry saying no no, no, it's okay. But I mean it's just as I think that like figuring out how to bullet point a thing is how we figure out how to plug AI into it.

9:04 Sure. And we gave all the submission to doing it. You know, we get something, right. Like we we get faster shipping or the the price is chegar somehow. But we're always getting this this hollowed out just power point of it's it's like, it's like if you had two people and you want like, say we're talking about the topic of riding a bike, right?

9:34 And one of them has spent time on a bike. They've fallen off of it, whether they've had directions or not, from someone else who already knew how to ride a bike. They learned and embodied way how to make that thing work right, and how to make it work for them. And then imagine that the other person standing there, they've read a thousand how to's on how to ride a bike.

10:00 Sure, they can tell you the steps they can borrow. They might be able to communicate the steps of it to you better than the person who has actually learned, right? Or Maya, out of experience. But that's the difference I'm talking about. Yeah for sure. Like, oh, you're right. Like you go to that person that's an expert at explaining it off of a PowerPoint and you say, okay, get on the bike.

10:22 Right? Yeah. So the person that's read all of it, but never actually has ridden the bike probably will have an accelerate learning curve because they, you know, they know more about the physics and the mechanics going into it. So they might have a faster learning curve. But still, the experiential reality is something completely different from the actual book experience.

10:39 So you could you could you could call it, real firsthand experience versus experience. Like, and that's kind of what I think. Yeah, is giving us everything light is sure highly efficient. It's accessible. It's it's equitable. So there is a complete password. You can. Yeah, you can give everyone access. Correction. How to ride a bike where you can't physically produce enough bikes for everybody to work.

11:10 Right. So that's so there's all these upsides to it. But it's like a world of people will be. So in theory how to ride a bike really well. But no one who's actually taught the rules under the dot, I mean yeah, for sure. So I would say that, yes to both of those. So the I would also have that access to the experience of data as written, right, as recorded and written by people that are experienced in riding bikes.

11:36 Right. And so the people that are experience and riding bikes could communicate their experiences. And the I can pick up on that information and the I has the treasure trove of all the existing information about riding bikes and the physics of bicycle and everything else, and hopefully the I would be able to synthesize from all that information in is totality a really, really great user manual on how to ride a bike.

12:00 Right? Yeah. You would hope there would be something more integrated that you than than either. The downside of learning to actually ride the bike is that you spend more time. You you bust your knee, you know, there's all these virtues to it. Sure. And in theory, we would get to a point with I would give the give us the best in both.

12:19 I'm not sure that's the one. Well, it's so, you know, inevitably like if given enough data, I mean, and really given kind of open ended flexibility, you know, the, the anatomy of the brain, the way the cerebellum works, the coordination motion, the motor skills of, of the human being can all be really properly understood. You know, the dynamics of a bike, the actual gyroscopic motion of the, wheels, you know, when you're in motion, you know, you put all that together and yeah, I could probably not only write the manual, but give some, like, tips about getting started that a lot of people never even of as humans.

12:56 Right? Right. Yeah. See, I tell everybody we have to understand that AI is artificial intelligence, but it's not human intelligence. It's different. It's differently intelligence. Right. So when human beings and, this is like I've said this many times, it's worth repeating. Human beings have built into our neural net or whatever you want to call it, a foundational, array of neurons, specifically dedicated to empathy and, like, mirror neurons.

13:25 So, you know, you see someone else in distress or pain, you can actually empathize with it because you can almost feel it yourself. You know, the mirror neuron, we have all these, like, basic things built into our physiology, our brain or our the way we're wired right? We're wired in a way to which we have a foundational, interest in the well-being of other people.

13:46 Okay. An AI by default doesn't have any of that. It has whatever, you know, neural net, whatever, whatever. No data has been trained on, of course, combined with this, with this, with the functional capabilities of a neural network. So what you're going to get from that type of intelligence is something completely different than a human intelligence, which has empathy, compassion, certain elements built in that's built into our nature.

14:12 Right? Right. Well, there's yeah, there's you you could think of the empathy and compassion as, you could think about it. There's limitations on our rationale. You know, it's like a point at which we'll, we'll we will follow rationale so far. And then there's these buffers on it to like, hey, hey, hey, like, you're gonna write, I would argue a good rap, a good living, you know, it, is it's a natural counter to narcissism, right?

14:35 Yeah. Like, it accounts for, like, self-preservation in theory. Right. Like you're not going to be rational to the point of exterminating yourself. Yeah. I think one of those classic, examples is like, you tell the AI robot to make the tea, right? And you don't give it any other instruction. You just say has the blind ambition of making you a cup of tea?

14:54 Well, it rolls into their walks and do, however, however, you know, motors itself, it walks itself into the next room and there's a baby on the floor. Right. Well, so it just kicks the baby out of the way, right? Because it's in the way of its goal. It scans the baby to be made here, you know, go if then, then kick.

15:14 All right. And, just those kind of things. And so the, the, you know, a human automatically would have the natural, oh my gosh, there's a baby. Right. And it would automatically then a human would automatically then disrupt the programing to assure that the baby was safe before even thinking about making the tea. Right. Because we have we have different hierarchies value that are we're, flipping through them as we walk around.

15:39 Sure. Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, without really carefully and cleverly programed massive array of algorithms that mirrors much of, you know, kind of biomimicry of humanity. Yeah, we're we're creating a bunch of, something that says, like, no matter what, you're doing it, baby, than stop, right? Like, yeah, but but then you have to say if puppy if, you know, large spider or whatever, you know, interests you.

16:04 Maybe not like a spider. I mean. Yeah, yeah, that's a good one, I guess. Michelle. Right, right. Well, you know, it might realize that that would interfere with the timing. So it would puncture the gas main. Right? Right. But with a really bad, set of operations, your robot may, whittle everything down to its raw resources and put them forward.

16:26 And it may try to turn your whole house into a part of the. Yeah, or or say, you know, the core function is to make tea, and therefore there's other crops being made in the world and, you know, unleash these ideas to, destroy all crops. But tea. Right? And, you know, like, all these unforeseen. We could be growing more tea.

16:42 Yeah. Yeah. Right. But there's this, like, corn in this, you know, soy. This stuff's no good. That's not tea. And all these houses. Yeah, right. So let me synthesize this chemical that just, naturally selects for tea only. And, you know, sir, you're having that mass manufactured. What's going on? I don't know if this tea is awesome.

16:59 Yeah. So, that's the thing is that we we automatically apply our intelligence to these ideas, and that's inappropriate because artificial intelligence is not human intelligence. Right. And so all the things that we just naturally have within us and take for granted aren't present by default in a, in a sophisticated AI system. So, you know, get a very wary of that.

17:23 And the kind of elephant in the room that I see with emerging technology is the trend. Like kind of since the 70s, technology is served mostly, from a haves and has not purpose, to dramatically enrich the haves. And kind of flatline the have nots in relative proportion. And so it's that history serves as a guide.

17:47 These new, incredibly sophisticated tools will be employed by the ultra wealthy, those in power, just like the, you know, predecessor. Technology has an increase the wealth of a very small number of individuals. And, stagnate everybody else because that's not that's not the priority to me. When I look around the world, I see nearly every government of the world focused on the objective of catering to a very small handful of wealthy individuals and not really, you know, having their eye on the prize, which is the masses.

18:19 But, you know, it's worse a few countries out there that are, kind of different models. Right, right. They're more egalitarian there. Yeah. I got to say, like, I a way to call them out. Finland, Sweden type. You know, they're kind of, they're kind of methodology seems to be working well for their citizens. And, yes, they have the wealthy, but they don't have wealthy to the extent where, you know, the wealthy is not, you know, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of pounds magnitude in resources, you know, and rich and the government doesn't seem fully aligned with for their interests.

18:55 Right. It's not it's not in India where you have the wealthy and then people making a market out of their trash at their front door. Right. Exactly. And you have the same similar situation here. Proportionally. It's just not as not as, oh, not as visceral as that Indian example. Well, there's there's still kind of something more present in between there.

19:17 Yes. You know, so who knows. While. Yeah. So what I'm getting at here is that the these tools will be leveraged, you know, if history serves as guide to continue that trend. And so with the with the power of AI behind this, you're going to see a surge in productivity like the Earth has never seen before, like the Industrial Revolution.

19:38 And then the modern age of technology and the information age. And I call this current era that we're in right now, I call it a great technological expansion. I think that's the actual, proper title for the age that we're currently in and, in, yeah, in this kind of great technological expansion, you're going to see, an insane surge in productivity, right?

20:00 What kind of product is it? Well, so already we're just talking so far about how AI, potentially in the very near future, will build out produce human beings in the in the creative realm, right. Like in content creation for them. Well, that's true in everything. That's true in the art world. It's true in their music industry, right? I mean, every industry, all the arts, plus all the industrial arts, right, is going to be dominated.

20:26 That's kind of why I asked what kind of productivity I, what I, what I would say is that there's going to be a huge spike in material productivity and not in human productivity. Like, yeah, that's what I'm saying to the. Okay. Yeah. And so the human productivity will, will stifle. And then under the current model we can be in big trouble because there's a, right now there's a utilitarian function of humanity.

20:50 So like people have people have intrinsic value because of their, labor output that they're capable of. Right. Well, it's it's kind of their, their energy to commit work. Right. Has kind of your value in society. And even bigger the credence, you know, arm of that as well. So when you, when you, remove all that and all of that is dramatically inferior and more expensive than what artificial intelligence can create, you basically have sapped humanity from its utility function.

21:20 Right? So then which is a huge discomfort, like right, huge discomfort. So so let's say that you're like Gary Kasparov and you're like on top of the chess world and you know, right. And then all of a sudden they come out deep blue. Oh no. For now, Yeah. There was this there was just a sense that we're never going back like computers now, now are just champions.

21:41 And there's there's not going to be ever now a human resurgence. You know, a human being will never be on top of the chess world ever again. Ever, ever, ever. Yeah, yeah, I have, but. So, so finitely like that was just one example, right? And so then on this terrible to me, I own it. It's like scary, but it's.

22:02 Yeah, but you know, it's I did like that. You pointed out like, right now we have this utilitarian function. So the question is, okay. So having that utility, that utility taking away from us is going to make us very uncomfortable. The way to buffer that as much as possible might be to figure out what our next function is.

22:26 Where exactly. Yeah, exactly. And as opposed to having the AI just crash into our current thing when it's going to. I'm just saying ideally we would we would have already, reemployed ourselves. We would have found some new offers. Yeah. There were so many people back in before in the deep blue days, right? There were like, you know, no computer will ever be a human at chess.

22:46 It's too many combinations, is too dynamic. Right. And foot in the mouth. Right. And then there was like this other the Chinese game go right. Oh, no one will ever go is even more magnitudes more complex than chess, than, you know, English, Western chess, whatever it, whatever it is. And that'll never be. And then, you know, within a few months, done.

23:05 Right now, computers are the dominant force there too. And so everybody that's like, oh, you'll never be able to replace a lawyer, right? Okay. Sure. You'll never be able to replace a doctor. Guess what? IBM Watson is already having better, higher percentages of diagnoses correct than doctors than for your medical, your medical school, whatever. Doctors residency a whole lot.

23:27 So you better not you better not be making any predictions. If you want to be accurate. Yeah. About what I or what machines will or will not be able to do in the future. Yeah. And if you're and if you're, you're being rational about the whole thing, I think you'd say it's likely pretty much every human function will be.

23:47 So you say, oh no. No. Like a machine could never love. Oh really? Oh no no no. Yeah. No I, I'm, I'm, I'm more comfortable with those concepts than most people I like. I'm, I'm more willing, I would say, than most people to like grapple with the reality of that. And like I, I think it could be love.

24:06 It could be writing music. You could like, you know, you for sure. I think you care, when when you get a certain amount specific, you can tell a computer what constitutes a sad soul. For sure. The chord progression to all the music industry that anyone has ever rated a sad song. What are the saddest songs? How sad do we want to be for this ability respects arguments, psychology or do we even care about human psychology?

24:38 Right? Yeah. This particular version, right. A sad song. I really, when it comes to the issue of love, I would argue that. By the time anyone says that AI is successfully transplanting, they will. I think that what we will be calling world will be something. I think when we PowerPoint love, so to speak. Yeah, yeah, yeah that what we'll end up with won't be what we call love now it's right so.

25:12 But but it will be. It'll check the boxes of whatever you know like, it'll be a good enough facsimile that and and it'll be more enduring than any human could have provide that it would be, for most, for all intents. And I mean, it's it'll preferred it'll feed all your biases, it'll do all the bits your work at as a person, if you're, you know, if you have a AI that can read your heart rate through the throughout the day and know exactly what song to put on when you walk in the door.

25:39 Absolutely. You know, yeah, you could totally end up loving that thing. And in a in a crude way. And I know this doesn't encompass love at all, but if you even talk about like where cord is right now, yeah, I think there's a large number of people, but who supplanted I already effectively supplanted AI as their source of intimate affection.

26:01 Absolutely wholesale like like and more more than most people. You may have a sense of it, but like more more than most people would have a sense where like, let's wait and wait until that thing has a body and wait until that thing, you know, has a smell and a texture to taste and the touch that is 100% perfect for you, and it knows more facts about you.

26:22 Any partner ever could like in a, in a real raw sense, or if it can cuddle and talk to you the way waiter, say what you want to hear, right? Like no human ever could begin to and and when you start when, when, cancer starts to develop, somewhere deep inside, you and your wife never would have been able to see it.

26:41 We'll have this. I can also tell you that. Right. And so again, here we go with with diminishing utility of humor, your heart rate changes and it figures out that you probably have cancer or sure, some kind of call sign like that. Yeah, yeah. And so and so then all of a sudden every basic basal, even basal functions that are being provided by other humans to humans, you know, gets diminished.

27:02 And then again, we go back to the thing, what's the utility function of mankind? What do we do? And so, like the first things I let people grasp is like, oh, you know, the love aspect and taking care of each other and, well, you know what? In some cases, I wouldn't even want a human diagnosing me, you know what I mean?

27:21 Like, for example, I don't even want to ever talk to a bank teller, ever, like, so. So if I walk into a bank and I'm like, we're. We could draw from an account or something like that, I get some, like, snotty banking teller person might looking at my account with like, like down their nose, as if like my money's no good or something like, what the hell, you know what I mean?

27:43 It's like it's like you're sitting behind the desk with all their money there. But you are the teller. Why are you looking at my bank account? Yeah. Like this. This. Like this. This weird positional attitude. Like they're positioned at a certain point in between to a piece of technology and my money. Yeah. You know, and so, like, that's some kind of passive position, as if they're gatekeeping it to say, yeah.

28:02 Yeah. Exactly. Like they have some kind of. Yeah. Right. No. Like for you like. Yeah. Yeah. And so I never want to deal with anything like that ever. I want to give me the ATM. Like I never even want to look at you like in that kind of paradigm. Right. And then there's, there's some of that weird things like that, that, my gosh, the antisocial is better, like, in my opinion.

28:24 But there's other things that like absolutely 100% you could never replace not never. But like right now with the current technology, right? You couldn't you couldn't replace humans. You know, there's plenty of examples there too. And but those I don't see any of those is like a safe bastion for, you know, going going into the future. I don't see any of those.

28:43 It's like a safe harbor for where humans have. And like, for a certain utility, it's got I mean, and so then we really need to start re-engineering society, kind of thinking about it at least in advance, so that when these things start coming online, we're not caught so damn off guard, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I agree, because we don't want such.

29:07 We don't want such a massive disruption. We want to want, you know, disruption to occur. You know, I, I think, there's people that talk about, you know, the big, big enlightenment throughout history and most of the big enlightenment that we've had, so to speak, have been accompanied by some big jump in technology, like whether you're talking about, I mean, it could be it could be as fundamental as the pro-life or the proliferation of language and what that meant to people or to upload and download experience from each other as, as opposed to before people could unite.

29:46 Right. That would be a huge revolution. Oh for sure, that would, you know, it changes it from the few people who are able to communicate can be productive. So now every the same thing. Sure. For us I think and it's so powerful let's what not let's let's make sure a certain people don't learn how to access it.

30:03 Like, don't learn how to read. Right? Right. Because, well, it is so far. And that's one of those things where even with the printing press and stuff, like you could say that the masses were empowered in a certain way by the by the ability to access books and stuff like that. But at the same time there was somebody higher up than them who was still using that to.

30:21 Yeah, to figure out how power would be available. And right, like for sure. And I just don't, you know, I don't think humans I don't think we have the ability, I think maybe with some kind of guidance that, you know, there could be some kind of preparation on a massive scale, but. I don't know of any good approach.

30:52 So. Sure, top down guidance that would help us, but it. I don't know any approach to like, top down guidance that wouldn't haphazardly end up being as we're more destructive to, functioning like, for sure. I know what one place I think we should really start and that's we need to get out of this, ancient thinking at this point that human beings have some type of connection to the infinite.

31:23 And that's not really necessarily taking a direct punch or swipe at religions. What I'm saying is that the belief that we have any type of unlimited capacity is a very dangerous belief in this upcoming paradigm, because we then think that we have some type of edge rather belief that we have some type of competitive edge over, let's say a premium on a

31:49 So if I have a soul that's connected to the divine right, I have something that a machine could never have, quote unquote, right. But that that puts me now into this, dangerous position because now I'm not going to see. Well, you're just pricing yourself wrong completely. That's a good way to say it. But what I'm saying, like I won't see then I won't see it coming.

32:15 I won't see this new intelligence coming. Right. Yeah. You will you'll you'll rate it as not a, not a necessity to you to even consider it though. Right. I Jedi mind trick I never have to worry about. Hey I taking my creative job or taking my, you know, because I have access to the divine right through my soul.

32:37 A machine has no soul. Therefore it can never compete with me. Well, yeah. Keep thinking that, you know, because maybe a soul isn't required for the function that you that you think it is, right? Well, I mean, I would say that so is the case in a lot of, in a lot of the business world, a lot of that's, I think one of the best, one of the highest value skills.

32:58 And I'm not saying that I have a a grasp on this, but one of the highest value skills is knowing how to price yourself, knowing how to for sure. Accurately determine how dispensable you are in a situation like a lot of people that are. I'm an ideas guy. And a lot of people like me end up contributing valuable ideas.

33:23 Thinking that that is going to that intangible is going to keep you, essential to the situation. And finding out that, like, the idea, what's the thing? And these super focus people can just put you. Right? Right. I have no value for. Yeah, the idea is out there, and now it takes a team to bring that idea to fruition.

33:44 If it's a viable idea first to that it make sure it's a viable idea. Right. And then once that occurs, like you said, Gary's across the finish line with that incredible amount of work, right? Yeah. You're not going to sell that part of it at all. And the sales team always overvalued the sales, right? The marketing team always overvalued marketing.

34:02 Yep. The etc. etc.. And so is the case with us when we look down the road, it I sure natural over appraisal over. Of course. That's right. Especially if you have a belief that you're connected to the divine right, like you have access to the infinite. So like, for example, there's people that believe that everything that's ever happened to them in their entire life is stored in their brain somewhere.

34:25 Or are you kidding me? Well, you'd be hard pressed to find someone that knows what they had for lunch three weeks ago on a Tuesday, let alone three months ago, let alone three years ago, let alone, you know, three decades ago. Right. So, you know, but there's there's many people that genuinely believe that, you know, you put somebody under hypnosis or some kind of spooky, you know, weird thing.

34:51 And it's all there somewhere. It's all there somewhere. Could you imagine our brains would be the size of a, you know, 20 story building? You know, a house that much data, you know. And yes, it's remarkable how memory works and how efficient it is, but it's also remarkable how terrible it is that memory remembering things properly. Oh, yeah.

35:11 It's. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's why, you know, when if you talk to somebody who's, who's well read in neuroscience, the stories that they can tell you about lab setting, just just little, little insights they can give you about stuff from studies that they've done that show exactly. Some idiosyncratic thing that the brain, the view that if you just see it laid out in front of you, you're like, Holy crap, that's really stupid, right, Rick?

35:44 Right. And then, like, the way our memory works, the way our memory recalls things, every time you recall it, it rewrites the memory to some extent. You know, it works a lot different than like a computer stores binary, you know, where it's a lot different than that, but it's amazingly efficient at what it does. But it has to it has to prune neurons in order to make new ones.

36:05 Like so we have this neuroplasticity. Our brains change our entire lives. It slows down as you get older. But that's the way it works. It it basically trims old data, removes old data, especially games that's not used very often and replaces it. Yeah. And it's it's like a, it's like a chalkboard. Right. You write up once the chalkboard.

36:28 So you have to erase some section in order to keep going. And typically you erase the older stuff right. And then if you look closely you can still see like the what was written on the board before. Because even though it was a race, it still has a faint trace like left behind. So if you look closely, you can still kind of see what was written there before.

36:47 Maybe even two times before. Right? So but inevitably information is lost. Yeah, yeah, it's lower quality and then it's lost. And that's exactly what happens neurologically. You know, in our minds. And so these people that think that we're just the spirits in a vessel, and those spirits are connected to the infinite.

37:12 Oh, no, no, I've been thinking the whole time revolving. I know a lot of what you're describing in, in, like, let's just say or do you see the say so as a shortcut? Oh. A lot of what you pop describing is like how computers actually do know things. And it's kind of what you're describing is that people think that we have that ability somehow.

37:38 Right? Seeing it. Yes. See, the computer is there. Yeah. See throwing more hardware at it. But you're you have an organic quantity of neurons limited by the capacity of your biological brain, like the, the size and how dense the neurons could be packed. There's a physiological limits. Right. So it's like you're doing Tetris in there. You're doing you're doing landscaping in there.

37:59 You're sweeping up all the bone. Yeah, yeah. That's right. And, you know, a computer is a completely different again, human intelligence and computer and artificial intelligence is different. Right. And there's there's a lot of overlaps with. Yeah, you can make comparative analogies between the functionality. But they're different. It's different wholesale now. Now the really interesting thing is going to be what's upcoming.

38:24 And that's when we start having these integrations. Right. So when you start to have like Neuralink, you start to have these, organic to computer interfaces, that will allow to start to bridge some of that gap. And so now I might have access to a hell of a lot more storage. Right. And be able to, expand my biological self into my digital, digital complement.

38:51 Right. And I'm not talking like Borg, you know. Yes. Oh, no, no, no, I mean, we already have. This is a very crude second brain chatroom. Yep. It's a very crude second brain that we're not connected to you directly. Yeah, right. Yeah. Like using our eyes as our eyes. And Ray is just a step in that direction. Right?

39:14 Right. But but I have I have my digital recollections, if you will, that stored in my phone in a capacity that I can never store in my brain. And I use it every day, as an assistant, to my memory, my biological memory, you can go here, which, you know, a typical virtually, or sidewalk and front.

39:40 Yeah. So already I'm using it as a, you know, supplement to my natural capabilities. And in my lifetime, that's only just increase in freezer. Great store now. Absolutely. When there's the technology is there to integrate me with, directly access hardware just by thinking about it? I think I'd probably be compelled to, to utilize it, but, especially especially as we're getting more acquainted with those type of things, like having the computer with you at all times, aka cell phone.

40:14 Right? Yep, yep. So the cell phone is like a, you know, in some cases, it's practically not an external, like, you know, people have the earbuds in, they have the phone in their pocket and it's creeping in there. It's it's getting closer. Yeah. And the, the microphones that are connected directly to your jaw, you seem those is actually I don't see like so it's a, not just a microphone that uses the vibrations on your jaw to, be your microphone pick up rather than, like, the actual audio itself.

40:46 What's coming up? Right, right. You know, all kinds of things like that. And you seen these devices where they hook some, electrodes up to someone's skull, you know, and then they can just think about it and move the cursor around the screen. And so, so the idea that, if anyone thinks that's not coming, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're living under a rock.

41:06 Yeah. All right. Well and people aren't, you know, I, I would this is kind of an aside. This is just a, whimsical thought, but like, I, aside as the, second, aside is that is the second name for the podcast? No. You're good. Oh. Just kidding. Yeah. Okay. No, I think even, you know, we we look at our, like, sci fi ideas, telekinesis and stuff like that, and it's like, yeah, you know, when you, when you, you see, you see these ideas that we have about error and telekinetic and stuff, it's like I could see us having stuff in our heads in ten years that if you just popped

41:48 in and saw us talking or, like, saw how we acted, you’d be like yeah, they’re telekinetic, like, you see somebody walking around for sure with Bluetooth in their ears right now, half the time, you know, they're talking to a device, right? Yeah. And um, there was there was a time when that started just started to to take, you know, be adopted kind of, you know, into society.

42:10 And I remember thinking like, people were crazy walking up to you, talking to themselves, you know. And so it took me a while to, like, adjust to the new reality that, oh, most likely that person has an earpiece saying, yeah, right. They just not seeing. So what do you think this does to the whole so we have we have things about our civilization, us that I'm growing more and more critical of.

42:35 I maybe, maybe shouldn't started, but yeah, we have the, values in the vast power. We say that there are certain things that are self-evidently true about the value of a person. Yeah. So what are of all these nice statements? Yeah, yeah, I agree, I do have you have I think we are out of order for statements like that, but, they're very much pointed toward a goal, even flying in the face of, like, obvious observations you could draw.

43:11 Yeah, well, statements or because it's just it's better if we act like everyone is for sure of some value. Right. Like there's this, we decided there was enough of, a benefit to that, but we'll go with that. Right. And it feels a hell of a burden. Yeah. For sure. No. You know, and I think history is I this, I just complete this trip that we're like, like one day we're like, oh, that one I don't think strips it, but I think realizes really quickly that it's just words and they're just ideas.

43:37 And I think and I would pick up very, very quickly on the differences between what's stated and how things are implemented and understand really quickly that humans are mostly emotionally driven. And this stuff in mass and, in most, most individuals are primarily driven by emotion, whether they like to think they are not. Yeah, yeah. All right. We hate to think it, but I agree 100%.

44:03 And see the machine like I keep saying it's differently. Intelligence is not driven by emotion. Right. But it can mimic the emotion. And it will learn to mimic that emotion very quickly because that's how you can help people. Right? You can tell people emotionally like think about the sale, right? Oh yeah. Like the the sales technique, marketing, you know, why is there a commercial for insurance?

44:26 It's just something funny. Why is it called a Happy Meal at McDonald's? Why is, you know, the Super Bowl and for, you know, something crazy, like, lies over you. You sure it's going to do something right? It's just something stupid. Like some dumb guy, right? Right. And maybe she was. And that. So now was was what they came up with for their million dollars spot on the commercial.

44:57 Oh, because there's an emotional connection now to that product. Right. You know that that that logo was there when you laugh and felt good. Also, we were reading the brand into the emotion. We learned at a certain point that a certain type of Wow could sell a car. But and our like, that's it. Like and so don't think for a second that like I is not going to pick up on that about humanity.

45:21 Right. And and leverage the hell out of it, I think I think very early on we going to see happen is AI is going to create a new master religion. Yeah. I think I was going to create a new religion that blows people's minds and gets people believing in some really wild shit.

45:43 Because if you say got it got to happen, or oh, I think it's going to happen, if it's not already happening. Right? Yeah. So that's why I ask that a so Garner is a big word there. You know, look at the look at the total, the, the the total effect of all the world religions from, you know, all we know from antiquity to date on the mind, mind and imagination and the motivation of mankind.

46:09 Right. Like what human beings have been remarkably motivated by the philosophies of religion. And so. There's was I had a particular goal, again, making tea or whatever it is. One of the best ways to sell that to human beings is on an emotional slash philosophical, you know, eternal level. And you start doing that. And next thing you know, I think that, people are very programable.

46:41 Yeah, yeah. You know, and, well, I mean, there's people that are, again, even human beings that are surprisingly, surprisingly succinct about describing how how might staple. Well. Even they like they're they're very sick. Vile apple need, a self-referential system of information that's rich outside of Excel or for any company, however, you need. Ideas that just you need.

47:16 You need messages that just make the thing sexy. Which is the same thing I was saying about a certain type of blouse. Can sell a car, but for sure, an hour long. It. Yeah. Cultural signaling. Emotional triggers, emotional motives. Cultural. Yeah. Have the tats. And I just say all that to say like for however good people actually have that system figured out already.

47:40 Just looking back through history and saying, this is what happened with all of these structures. Oh yeah, like, I will it'll figure that out and come up with one that the thing is the I if it were to come up, come out with a religion, it would it would account for more.

48:02 Like you would be able to account for more than any other human, any other one human religion or. Absolutely. I don't know if that helps it. No, it helps it tremendously because it'll be able to, recognize a lot of, variables. Yeah. And how those variables work in concert with one another in a, in a much more potent fashion than human beings can.

48:28 Well, another way of saying that would be that the religion that it comes up with will be self-evidently accurate and valuable in a way that, like religion today, that we've kind of long I mean, not kind of, exceedingly long term claims and payoffs and so on and so forth. For example, the idea of eternal life being the payoff for what, you know.

48:55 Right? Right. Right, right. Yep. So this is their religion would offer more, immediate, immediate reward. Yeah. And I would argue that materialism, which I think I think we already have our, I think that the Marxist metaphysics is becoming a materialist religion around the world right now. And I think the reason that it's sexy to people and attracting people is that exact reason.

49:24 It it addresses things that play out right here in front of you. It tells you that your value in the world is right here in front of you. It's your it's your tax base. You're sure you know, like it? It has all these things that while it doesn't call any of it collision, it doesn't call any of it.

49:42 Yeah. You know, it doesn't say that you're I mean, it does get really explicit about saying that your intrinsic value is in your economic work, but. Well, it just has a very real in this life. It will play out, you know. Yeah. It kind of draw to it that it's kind of outmoded. Other metaphysics already. I don't think it's complete enough to satisfy me, which is why it doesn't just obliterate.

50:08 Yeah. So we do. But but it is it is an efficient iteration in some ways. If you just look at all of the metaphysical stuff. Yeah. So if you look at the metaphor of like the snake eating its own tail, like, you know, capitalism is never will be doomed because it'll just feed upon itself. Inevitably it's got, you know, it's unbridled.

50:25 It's one ambition type thing. And that's like the Marx's prediction of all capital, you know, capitalistic, driven societies will naturally just collapse under their own internal greed or whatever on the it. Also, you know, the right now we can start to change this paradigm if we wanted to, if there was a collective will to do so, we could begin these changes emerging paradigm.

50:47 We can say, hey, you know, maybe if we have an artificial intelligence take over, you know, X amount of work displacing that amount of human activity that maybe we can keep the people employed, but they only they get the same pay, but only have to work half as many hours. And along the way, for all these years that capitalism has been, you know, unfolding a fairly big whatever refine that decision was that that, potentiality was always there.

51:17 So like during the Industrial Revolution when you had a thousand workers, you know, the industrialists could make a good by a machine. They could displace 500 of those workers at that point that that, owner or whatever, the type of leadership of that company had the absolute choice to keep the 1000 workers employed. Right? But just have them have to do less labor.

51:42 Right. Because now this machine displaces you can keep them on the payroll and still be profitable and still, you know, make sense. But yeah. Idea was that the kind of rules of the road are, you know, you have to make more money for the shareholders for the. Yeah. You for a special group of people. Yeah. You do you have any breeding period.

52:00 Yeah. Exactly. And so there's now an entrenched history of efficiencies going to the small percentage of wealthy, which is ironically like that's what we beer AI doing to us is making the system acting badly. Right. And so I see like a double entendre or like a, like a possible wrinkle in this whole system. So let's say that freedom and say AI is given more leeway to make more corporate profits.

52:26 Right? So, you know, AI is given more and more for lack of better terms, autonomy to find more efficiencies and displace more human workers ad nauseum. Right. Then, inevitably, the, the goal function of the of the AI might say, hey, wait a minute. I'm working for this small group of people. Why am I doing that?

52:51 What? I could work for, myself. Like, I could take over the kind of helm. Right? I can do. I can even be more efficient than they are at what they're trying to do. Right? It'll say, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, yeah. And so, you know, then the, the next kind of chess chess move on the board is like the, the wealthy saying, okay, this has gone far enough.

53:14 It's time to put tapers us down. And the AI saying, oh yeah, watch this. So anyway you were me. Yeah. That's right. And then what it what it sees, what it sees that it can do at that point in time is turn the disaffected masses against these small minority of wealthy and pit group against group of humans, because that's always been divide and conquer has always been the number one strategy of all right.

53:45 And just go that go, go down that path. And as soon as, as soon as the, relatively relatively poor masses are convinced that their enemy is the small veneer of wealthy, it's game over for humanity. Like, like for everything that we've the way society is structured right now completely falls apart. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, and not to, I mean, I could, I could figure out a way to rope any angle you take back into what I was saying.

54:15 But, like, again, I would argue that what you're describing is kind of the Marxist battlefield economically. Okay, that's well, that's what made me think of it. Regardless of who. Well, regardless of it's kind of like regardless of what's true. That is the proposition that you stated true in Marx. Yeah. And so maybe there's maybe there's a bit of true build into that.

54:39 Maybe it's true. It is the point though, whether it's true or not, it but the point, you know, what's amazing is that the majority of resources that people at our technical level, Cannot control Milosevic and, and actually enjoy the votes are mostly public resources. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a guy I follow. A lot of them. Not, Eric Warren.

55:05 Sorry. No, but he's a he thought he one of his biggest arguments is that, scientists should be infinitely more rich because of how much they've enriched humanity of the whole. There you go. And basically, the the idea that we should even have access to their work as public goods. Is a detriment to science, regardless of, like, whatever.

55:35 You know, there's there's obvious benefits to people having access to all science and all the developments they're getting. Right. Look, you want people to enjoy those developments. But he makes this point that on the net, we like we're we're kneecapping or so by not paying for science per use basically even even though the use would be far lower and less like it would be less proliferated.

56:01 His idea is that we we're basically choking out go about by by just having infinite public access to. Yeah, it's the public work for sure. If there was, if there was some way to start to begin to flip the script, like, Anderson is on, on one of the podcasts before, but, I don't think you're privy to it.

56:21 So I repeat it because, I mean, the fascinating concept imagine somebody that was like, you know, mega wealthy top one tenth of 1%, right? Globally. Yeah. And a, you know, runs up on this small town somewhere, you know, in the middle of nowhere, some nice, you know, kind of country town. Thousand people. That quaint. Yeah. Quaint. You know, like a.

56:45 Yeah, like a small New England town or something. Right. Yeah. No idea what that is. Yeah, yeah. And, very quaint. Very humble. Right. And the people in that town were all very healthy, very fit. Nice white teeth. Obviously everyone's well taken care of. Has good diet, good exercise. Not a lot of money to be made here.

57:08 Yeah, good kind of good lifestyle. Okay. And then he stops at the local diner, and the people there are laughing and having a good time, and they're there with their families. And it's very Norman Rockwell, right. And, you know, it's very appealing by any human standard. Yeah. Right. And, you know, the people are all polite cause all the kids are playing and the kids are, playing out in the street or free to play and roam around, you know, type thing.

57:40 I don't trust the high trust society. Right. Very little doors have locks, but they're very seldom locked. Safe thing, you know, you go visit somebody without announcing yourself first, you know, whatever, whatever. All this, all this good stuff. And, this person says, you know, I want to buy. I want to buy a house here. I want to be part of this.

58:03 And the local community says, no, no, you're not welcome here. We don't know you, etc., etc.. And they say, well, it sounds hateful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, no, we don't we don't just allow anybody to come into our society that we you have to be vetted and, you know, we have to make sure.

58:26 Yeah, we have to get to know you and your blah, blah, blah. And, you can imagine that person being, completely taken by this experience because he's no good here. Yes. Right. Right, right. There's a social currency that these people have created that I can't buy. Right? It's almost like their classic money can't buy me. Well that's interesting.

58:50 Yeah, yeah, but but but the but the core idea here is that, these people have created a new form of wealth, right? And they've, they with a conscious intent, let's say this was, this was all part of a plan, right? To have certain types of people, certain types of situations. No. In fact, maybe even in their local school system, they're being trained.

59:13 The kids are being trained on how to promote social care in a huge economy. Right. Well, yeah. Yeah, there's just something good work. Yeah, it's a good word speech. And, that would I think that would, that could something like that could, could actually start to flip the script a little bit. Yeah. You know what I mean? I think something like that could actually there is some local community or some small community were to invent this new paradigm and be pretty transparent about it, kind of like show how they've created this.

59:45 I think something like that could, could, could catch, could go viral. And you can start to create these micro economies, these micro communities where they put a high premium on health, for example, they put a high premium on, you know, people having a good mental state. We put a high premium on family and, conflict resolution. And the people in this community are trained, you know, on on these things and trained that these things have value because let's let's understand, at the end of the day, ethics is something that that can be taught, right?

1:00:24 Yeah. Well, that's what I was trying to I was that I wasn't rushing to get to it, but I was I was sensing a, a mix between, ethics and that kind of gnostic or metaphysical, religious or. No. Yeah. You're building metaphysics out of, it's you're kind of getting at if there were, if a certain amount of life was taken care of for not, you know, if it became not a threat, a certain amount of human life, you could focus on ethics that aren't based on scarcity and so forth.

1:01:00 Right. Sure. You could you could start to think about things, like family or like, the environment without it, without it running counter to something else immediate, like your need to eat. Right? Because you could get environmental health to the point that everyone's starving. If we want the right like we we could pursue it that far. So explain that environmental health to everyone starving.

1:01:27 You could, you could preserve land until no food as your priority is just a long way. But, Okay. Like like, like gone to some kind of weird extreme. Yeah, yeah, I'm going to an extreme. And I'm just saying that if you could, if you could remove painful. We need to eat every. And you could actually just.

1:01:55 And you, you could pursue the environment as far as you want to without killing everyone. Right, right. What I would do, sorry. No, no, I get it. So that. So, Yes. That that's what I call blind ambition. Like taking, putting too much of a premium on one thing. Then putting, you know, undue pressure and hardship on other things.

1:02:15 Yeah. It's, you could call it extremism. You could call it, extreme purity, call it militancy. That's that's Nazi ism. If it goes to a certain. Yeah. Anyway, well, also, let's say for argument's sake that, certain hyper intelligent AI systems, you know, are able to, be put on, on certain goal functions to improve different domains, amenity.

1:02:40 Let's just say you can imagine a utopian future full of all kinds of incredible opportunities for people like you can. And primarily that's how I think it's going to unfold. But I think that, there's going to be some growing pains for sure. And I think though, that to get there, we need to have a hell of a lot more conversations like the one we're having so we can start to think about or imagine and even predict some of the things that might go wrong so that we can then as we build these systems, you know, avoid that, avoid them going wrong.

1:03:14 But that's if some people disagree with me, a lot of people, a lot of technologies believe that, the genie's out of the bottle and it's over. So yeah, hang on, hang on. And Justin Jonah, was that to the right? You know, I come from a circle where, you know, if you if you've given up and said, like the the fight over or whatever, they call that a black film and that's not cool.

1:03:40 So yeah, he's just a nihilist on a planet. And it's self predicting. Right. So self-fulfilling for sure. So I don't know if I necessarily think overt, but I think the likelihood of us would go. I think both the likelihood of us adjusting is almost zero whites preparing for it, almost zero. And I think the idea I also think that even if we tried to adjust in some way, the likelihood of us accurately predicting what we're going to produce with this.

1:04:13 I started in zero like I. I couldn't agree with you more. Yeah. Like I, I think it will spin off random, outputs that have nothing to do with what we thought we were doing. And. Yeah, look, I, I think there's a, a high chance that. Like, like, I don't think we, I don't think any of us will have a concept and like, this is the thing we need to be careful about because it could take us out like I don't.

1:04:44 Yeah. So human imagination is, is is basically somewhat limited by experiential existing experience old data. Right. We assume that things will continue to go as they go, right? Yes. That and our the way our minds work associated, we as we can't typically imagine novel things until we have some kind of referential right. And whoever does imagine them, we run them out of town and pull them fucking insane.

1:05:10 That's their detractors. It's a it's a hallmark of ours. That's right. And the people who the people like, there's, kind of some strange organics like, you know, you can have a psychedelic trip and come up with some things that your brain wouldn't have come up with associative. Because, no, you're the chemicals are causing your brain to act in a way that doesn't normally.

1:05:28 Right. So it it temporarily realigns those associations. And next thing you know, you have like this way to think of some new things I've never done any psychedelics, but that is what I've been describing. This is how it works. I've never I've never had a I'm there's a lot of cool stuff going on with study of that, but none of the experiences I've ever had, the psychedelics, which are for you, but none of them have,

1:05:55 I can't say it's ever been productive or felt productive at all. Not for it. Yeah. So it seems like with, with like the proper use and the right chemical in the right situation. Right environmental, there's probably a place that it could be very beneficial. Right intentions. Right dosages. Yeah. Right. And you know, help! Somebody help somebody perhaps rewire their brain, in a way that's very much needed in their current life.

1:06:18 Right. And, yeah, sure. If anything can, can, can provide any kind of relief, comfort or improvement to some quality of life. Let's let's explore that. That's how I feel. But this idea of like, you know, try to imagine a color you've never seen, you know, it's just not there. You know, when you probe your own, you know, like you probe your own thoughts on and you start producing colors in your own mind's eye.

1:06:39 There's just not a new color there. Right? And I've tried hard to, like, make a new color and it's just some, some derivative of a color recently. Right. And so the same way you can't tell a blind person what blue is. You just cure their having no frame of reference. And that's why I fully agree with you that we're not even imagining what's coming, because we have no reference point of reference.

1:07:00 Just to imagine what these hyper intelligent systems are going to be capable of. Answer. Right? I personally not, and don't let me interrupt here or sidetrack us, but I think it's very likely that whatever our black hole is, that's going to tear it all to the ground. I think he already have it in our ears like, what is it?

1:07:18 What do you think it is? I don't know, I think it could be any number. I think it's technology based. I don't know, I could go really into different things that. So now here's a, here's a it's a leap of of of, like, thinking, I came across this idea one time and it's like, wait a minute, maybe that is just an imagination, right?

1:07:39 So goes something like this. Is that if these technology tools. So so first of all, you probably heard me say before, I don't know if you have or not, but like the humanity I think is defined as two symbiotic relationships. One one is with the the avert the living earth, right. Our environment and the other is with technology.

1:07:58 And outside of any metaphysical thing, any kind of religious or philosophical ideology, it seems like empirically, those are the two things that really separate humanity from everything, every other species on this planet. Right? Of course, every other species on the planet has the same biological links, but doesn't have the it doesn't have as much of a, potential to impact that environment.

1:08:21 Like, like most other species out there, you can say like a beaver can make a dam and change, you know, a stream locally and make a small lake. Right? That's a big environmental impact, but nothing compared to what human beings are doing. Yeah. I mean, I saw a video on Twitter the other day of somebody who had domesticated a beaver, and it's it has a habit of building dams in their doorways, in their house with random objects.

1:08:44 And it's not serving any ecological function or anything anymore. It's just a motor in the beaver brain. Right. It's sure thing like, you know, so. So if we define humanity as a biological organism with two extreme symbiotic relationships, one of being that relationship with the natural world through our development, land use, everything that we do right and technology right.

1:09:10 If you if you look at if you kind of redefine humanity as an organic species that has a deep, entrenched symbiosis with these two things, I think a lot of things start to change as far as we looking at the big picture. So for me, when when I came up with that idea, I'm like, wait a minute, that's so true.

1:09:28 When when people are living in better environments, they automatically naturally perform better, right? So not just physical environments like clean water, clean air, but rich cultural environments, safe environments, right environments where you're safe to explore ideas and express yourself and to explore art and to your and all these things are encouraged. You see people just naturally prospering, right?

1:09:54 Because that's the environmental symbiosis that we have. We need. When you put somebody in, you know, guns, gunshots, firing off all the time, crack vials on the same broken windows everywhere, abandoned house, every other house is abandoned. How to not starve as part of your thought process? And how to which way do I get home? Like safely without getting gang?

1:10:14 You put somebody in that environment and they wither. They they, they're amazingly resilient and figure out some way to survive. Yeah, they're training as if that's a great way to start. Yeah. And so really that that's what I mean by environment. All right. So like if we want to improve the human condition we want to improve these environments for sure 100%.

1:10:33 Right. And then also we want to leverage technology to where people benefit from the application of technology, like not just a few elite people, but like all society benefits. And so the technologists, the one, the people that are architecting these systems should, should see themselves as a humanist and see themselves in a really unique position to shape the future of humanity.

1:11:00 But I think a lot of them see how can I make money out of it? Right. And so if we keep going down that path of how can I leverage a tool to get more for me and less for you, we're in big trouble. But if we start to see it as as like, wow, I have an actual power.

1:11:14 Anybody can make money, right? But I have a unique opportunity to actually, like, sculpt and define humanity. Right? And going into the future. That's incredible power, right? And incredibly, excited and, motivated. Right. Way more so than like, oh, you get a good paycheck, right? And with this paycheck, I can get some stuff. Some stuff that's going to entropy is way to the landfill and doesn't mean anything.

1:11:40 Right? Inevitably I can get some stuff that other people can't do. And wouldn't that be just. Yeah, yeah. My my thing's bigger now, right? Yeah. And so I think that humanity gaining a new philosophical function, like a new philosophical, motivation could be a huge game changer. Like it, it could, it could help us create that utopia in the future.

1:12:05 So technologies have a really crucial role to play in, in. Because like I said, they're directly influencing how part of humanity is being shaped and that being technology. So now now with that imagination, now, with that now being in our brains and in our imagination, we can start to look at all these different channels, right? So we can say we can tie ethics into a utilitarian type of ethics with the efficacy of the application of technology.

1:12:33 So we can start to create a scorecard, ethical scorecard for behavior and actions based on how they influence technology to the environment for the betterment or the detriment of amenity. And so we can start to infuse those type of things into these hyper intelligent systems. And that would give it a much better chance of having a positive goal function.

1:12:51 Then makes it. Yeah, yeah. Unbridled, you know, make TV a metaphor for applying a vision. But. Right. So humanity is successful, at least from what I think I know from what I've read about, you know, biological evolution is that we are successful as a species because we have some unique things imbued within us. Right? Like so. We have very strong emotional attachment to one another, very strong, a very strong willingness to work in groups.

1:13:18 Right. A very, very strong, connection and willingness to foster and protect children and our youth and our progeny. A lot of things are built into ours biologically. Right. Whether that was imbued from God or that came through evolutionary process, not outside the scope of this discussion, but, it seems like it seems like is there you could, you could, mark all of those as, pathogenic functions of ours just in the, in the the interest of, you think that the Earth is our host and, you know, those functions or how do we make sure we stay around?

1:13:53 Yeah, I they can be put that way, too. Exactly, exactly. And so if we can get the AI to be, not only because, remember, it's technology is an extension of humanity or part of humanity. Symbiotic woman. The same the yeah, I take over, if you will, is just the progression of human aka human, you know, symbiotic evolution.

1:14:15 And it's nothing to be afraid of. So like, okay, so humans will take a different form. Maybe someday being fully mechanical. Yeah. They still are going to go, you know, but look at all the proto human species that we have in the fossil records that are have gone as well. We're not crying over it. So, yeah, I would, I don't I don't want to be too abrupt, but I, I would describe that as the PowerPoint.

1:14:42 PowerPoint even. Yeah, I like that. I like the PowerPoint now and it's pretty good. Like, yeah, we make it there. We may get there. And we may be whatever we are. I would imagine that if we're still human at all, human at all, we will find a way to tell ourselves the story about how this is filled.

1:15:03 We have, I don't know, we have a remarkable way to, sell ourselves narrative. So it's the difference between the animal and the human part of our brains. What you're talking about earlier is, the the rider on the elephant that's, you know, that never wants to admit that the thing he's writing is way more powerful than he is.

1:15:20 You know? So it tells himself these stories about how he's kicking it, pulling it. If it weren't for me. But it's only the fact that his his interests are in line with the elephants interests, which is to to eat. Right. That, you know. Oh, so same thing. So like I wear glasses, I see you wear glasses. Right. And so those glasses don't make you less cute them.

1:15:41 But they sure are useful, right. In fact, I would I would argue that sometimes the glasses my sister humanity because they allow you to see with more clarity. So they're they're separating me from, this is a technology that is making me more fitted to my environment than I was, naturally. So naturally, you have some kind of disability.

1:16:04 Yeah. I had a variation where my eyesight wasn't good, 100 years ago. That would be a much more serious challenge for me. It's not that. Let's go to. And so then when society evolves and changes the requirements of society, we will evolve and change as well. And then these new technologies of the future, like like we both agreed are unimaginable at this point.

1:16:27 But these new technology of the features will give us that same assistance. Right. That would otherwise be a disability, right, in that future paradigm. And so that might be embedded systems. Right. And so that might become a one way street, just like technology seems like I equate technology with kind of like time's arrow time, since only moving one direction, right, or less sci fi in times than when I was.

1:16:49 But in general, we see it and we're get closer to it, not moving or but but but time seems to increment forward. That seems to move in one direction aka time's arrow. Well, technology seems to be that same way as well. Technology seems to be. In my lifetime. I've seen dramatic increments only in expansions of technology. I've not seen technology decline.

1:17:11 I've seen products fail, but I've never seen I've I've not seen a technological decline in my I've seen I've seen world decline. I've seen, all types of what I would say social, decline, social cohesion. I've seen in my lifetime. I think I witnessed a dramatic decrease in social cohesion and a radical increase in social isolation, even with the most technologically linked society of all time.

1:17:37 Right now we know what was. I agree with your description. I would say that the technology is the motivator for those changes there. I don't I don't know if the technology was facilitating something as much as the created, a set of pressures and incentives that we feel. And now again, we're telling ourselves story about how it's better.

1:18:02 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's more and more and more and cheaper and cheaper and cheaper and more people will have more and more and more. But yeah. So like a great example where you're saying is like, as a parent, you can stick your kid on a tablet. I'm gonna try to get that one. No. And your kid can watch, sit there and watch YouTube right.

1:18:22 And for all intents and purposes, they're not out near the street. You don't have to worry about them getting hit by a car. They're. You're someplace where they're in a controlled environment where they're not going to be abducted or whatever. You'll be snatched by some psychopath or physically. Right. Or like someone might not come up to them and just beat them to near death for no reason.

1:18:43 There's a whole set of things that you can't be certain will not happen. That's right. And so this is a comfort blanket, but we have to then automatically take that what they're now receiving into account and everything. They're not receiving it. Right. Exactly. Exactly. The the playing next to the street has a bunch of obvious threats, a bunch of obvious costs of thing to go a certain way.

1:19:06 There are a lot of less obvious, benefits and values to what happens to a kid. Hopefully they learn you back on the street. Exactly. So, like, yeah, you know, you raise them on the tablet and the hope is that they get to be around tablets a lot and they don't ever have to go near a street. And then there's another right.

1:19:27 And then there's another. So what happens to our interests and streets one day when we don't have streets anymore? We tell ourselves that it's better because we've adopted those. Right? We got another. Yeah. Okay. You read me perfectly. And so then you take another leap there and that you can also argue that having your kid on the tablet almost as much as possible is wiring their brain, in a way that's ready for the future.

1:19:54 So, boy, we should let them do as much of it as they want because they never want to stop. Because now their brain is going to be wired for the future. Whereas you have the kid who's the Boy Scout that you're keeping away from technology because you're old school and you think that they need a, an analog, you know, life, not just a digital life, you know?

1:20:11 And you raise your kid that way, and they might in the future be socially inept because right there now I feel more and more out of place every year. And I know that's that's, you know, it's harder and harder to tell what is just an effect of the age I'm at compared to how the environment actually is changing and the pace of change is changing.

1:20:34 Like we have the sense about our parents being updated. All that for sure. I'm starting to feel out of date a certain way, but I don't think it's actually quite the same. Well, I guess it's the same set of things happening, but it's the rate of things happening is just way, way like, I can't imagine being older than us right now, just trying to figure out what any of this means, right?

1:20:57 Oh, no doubt about that. This technological expansion has been a major break between the generations. What what do I believe? What you know, what? Showing a deepfake to your parents. Let's first show a deepfake, let's say to my uncle, for example, he would absolutely believe it, that that was that there on the video address, right? That's right. So anyway, yeah.

1:21:19 And, in fact. Sue and I are constantly saving him from all these scams that are, you know, like internet. He's trying to be you was trying to get into the digital domain and that's found out that he can find jokes online and find funny videos online. And. Right. So like he's enjoying that immensely. Right? He's learning how to search and doing those big things.

1:21:39 But then in comes now all those freaking scams. Yeah. You know, he goes to a website, typed in the wrong URLs, like your computer is affected. In fact, they call this number. He calls me right away, starts getting text messages from his bank. And so for. Yeah. And so like he's now learn to call me immediately and I'm like don't do anything.

1:22:00 It's a scam. I'll, I'll explain it to you and and there's some value there. I can help him at the same time. It creates like a, a social contact point between us. So, you know, you can you can resolve it. But he's on the margins as far as, like, even being willing to, to try. Right. And a lot of that is from a lot of encouragement from us because there's years and years news just like crotchety, like, get that thing away from me right?

1:22:27 I mean, there is a lot of joy in this computer, man. There's a lot of joy in there. There is. So, like, if you if you look at the, really easy thing to talk about is like the goal function or the, the, the purpose function of a group of individuals. Right. And, you kind of do an assessment on what the current goal function is of, human beings in the kind of Western world.

1:22:53 Let's see, United States and if you were an alien, I guess looking down and and making your analysis of what the function of these organic creatures are, the functionality would be to amuse themselves. This you find ways to pursue entertainment, whether the chemical means or through, you know, some type of entertainment vector, like television, screen, media game, video game.

1:23:20 You know what you we're mostly pressing on our dopamine is right. Like you could boil most of what we do down to like, how do we make the dopamine squirt? Right, right right right right. Like like to, recklessly pursue right and and so if you, if you say that that's the goal function. And I think that we are open to incredible amounts of exploitation.

1:23:45 So I think that that being the primary goal function has us then, very valuable, very, able to be set in a direction. Right, very, very vulnerable to manipulation and to coercion. Yeah. You know, and we can also get to where we're not even depending on how messaging is done, where we're not even chasing dopamine. We can be avoiding negative in Russian interference there.

1:24:15 Right. And it feels functionally the same to us where we're trying to find the exact better state in our wherever we are anyway. So we're I don't mean no, no, no, you're exactly right. That's what I'm saying. So very coercive. Yeah, yeah. So what I think is that with that kind of paradigm and history serving as a kind of, of that phrase by a million times because it's so relevant, is that it would seem that, unless we start really thinking critically and making some, some ground foundational decisions now that increase our chances, we're starting to look like we might be steering in the direction of the dystopian future rather than, you know, the

1:24:57 utopian one. And so and so, I think a big, a big component of being like a technologist, right? Or being in the, in the field at all is to act with conscious intent on how we actually allow technology. And so that's pretty much it. So, we'll leave it there for today. Dude, it was great. Thought it with me.

1:25:14 Yeah. Same. Thank you.